1 00:00:22,720 --> 00:00:09,110 welcome to the skeptic zone the podcast 2 00:00:31,330 --> 00:00:26,259 yes it's the skeptic zone episode number 3 00:00:33,650 --> 00:00:31,340 198 for the fourth of August 2012 4 00:00:37,700 --> 00:00:33,660 Richard Saunders here with you from 5 00:00:40,880 --> 00:00:37,710 sydney australia in august oh boy August 6 00:00:43,730 --> 00:00:40,890 always ah yes August that means Dragon 7 00:00:45,530 --> 00:00:43,740 Con in atlanta georgia is coming up at 8 00:00:48,350 --> 00:00:45,540 the end of the month i think labor day 9 00:00:50,000 --> 00:00:48,360 long weekend in the united states I'm so 10 00:00:52,310 --> 00:00:50,010 sorry that I can't make it this year the 11 00:00:58,040 --> 00:00:52,320 skeptic zone podcast was actually 12 00:01:00,500 --> 00:00:58,050 launched at a dragon con in 2008 and for 13 00:01:04,039 --> 00:01:00,510 some years i was visiting that 14 00:01:06,649 --> 00:01:04,049 convention and dr. 80 also what a 15 00:01:09,200 --> 00:01:06,659 fabulous time it was I hope I hope I 16 00:01:11,300 --> 00:01:09,210 hope I can get there next year that's 17 00:01:12,680 --> 00:01:11,310 the plan folks that's the plan I've got 18 00:01:14,960 --> 00:01:12,690 a year to get that all happening and all 19 00:01:18,440 --> 00:01:14,970 together but let's bring ourselves back 20 00:01:21,080 --> 00:01:18,450 to 2012 and this week's show of the 21 00:01:23,330 --> 00:01:21,090 skeptic zone another loss of Vegas 22 00:01:26,870 --> 00:01:23,340 extravaganza I guess you can say kicking 23 00:01:30,290 --> 00:01:26,880 off with Maynard with a very good friend 24 00:01:32,330 --> 00:01:30,300 of mine professor bruce m hood made our 25 00:01:34,280 --> 00:01:32,340 chats to Professor Bruce temple what an 26 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:34,290 interesting man he is Oh what an 27 00:01:39,200 --> 00:01:36,810 interesting man how the mind works how 28 00:01:41,750 --> 00:01:39,210 you perceive reality what does 29 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:41,760 consciousness is there really somebody 30 00:01:45,590 --> 00:01:43,530 sitting in our heads directing our 31 00:01:47,810 --> 00:01:45,600 movements all that sort of stuff what an 32 00:01:50,060 --> 00:01:47,820 interesting man and just after that may 33 00:01:53,020 --> 00:01:50,070 not checks to Jim under down from the 34 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:53,030 center for inquiry and the independent 35 00:01:59,120 --> 00:01:56,370 investigations group now Jim tells may 36 00:02:02,330 --> 00:01:59,130 not about the time he dealt with Uri 37 00:02:05,180 --> 00:02:02,340 Geller in Russia he recoloring Russia 38 00:02:08,630 --> 00:02:05,190 should be very interesting and after the 39 00:02:10,699 --> 00:02:08,640 break I catch up with somebody who I saw 40 00:02:14,239 --> 00:02:10,709 speak here in Sydney Australia many 41 00:02:18,110 --> 00:02:14,249 years ago in 1989 it's one of the very 42 00:02:19,110 --> 00:02:18,120 first Australian skeptics sponsored 43 00:02:21,180 --> 00:02:19,120 events I 44 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:21,190 to can't even remember where it was 45 00:02:28,619 --> 00:02:25,090 exactly Robert Shaffer a world-renowned 46 00:02:30,660 --> 00:02:28,629 UFO expert what a pleasure it was for me 47 00:02:34,259 --> 00:02:30,670 to chat to Robert Shaffer after seeing 48 00:02:36,210 --> 00:02:34,269 him all those years ago even before I 49 00:02:39,059 --> 00:02:36,220 was involved in the skeptical movement 50 00:02:41,490 --> 00:02:39,069 UFOs and more coming up later in the 51 00:02:44,789 --> 00:02:41,500 show and to round off the show we have a 52 00:02:48,270 --> 00:02:44,799 wonderful interview with dr. rachy 53 00:02:51,360 --> 00:02:48,280 talking to Tim Farley from what's the 54 00:02:53,339 --> 00:02:51,370 harm dotnet now Tim is one of the 55 00:02:55,890 --> 00:02:53,349 hardest-working skeptics on the internet 56 00:02:59,430 --> 00:02:55,900 out there and he is interest apart from 57 00:03:02,059 --> 00:02:59,440 what bahama of course is Wikipedia so 58 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:02,069 stay tuned for that in-depth interview 59 00:03:07,199 --> 00:03:05,530 to round off the skeptic zone well 60 00:03:08,880 --> 00:03:07,209 that's what I call a packed episode I'm 61 00:03:12,599 --> 00:03:08,890 not going to waste any more time I'm 62 00:03:16,050 --> 00:03:12,609 going to run downstairs I'm going to 63 00:03:18,390 --> 00:03:16,060 open the cupboard I'm going to see if I 64 00:03:22,800 --> 00:03:18,400 have the ingredients to make myself a 65 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:22,810 pan galactic gargle blaster yes google 66 00:03:26,370 --> 00:03:24,250 it I'm sure some people know what I'm 67 00:03:43,130 --> 00:03:26,380 talking about well I'm doing that I'll 68 00:03:51,050 --> 00:03:47,720 here's my not spooky action at a 69 00:03:55,740 --> 00:03:53,760 look legend gentlemen I'm backstage in 70 00:03:57,120 --> 00:03:55,750 an area you could hear echoing around if 71 00:03:58,650 --> 00:03:57,130 you can imagine that seem from spinal 72 00:04:00,600 --> 00:03:58,660 tap when they're going through and they 73 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:00,610 don't ever ever find the stage that's 74 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:02,170 where we are with Bruce hood good 75 00:04:05,790 --> 00:04:03,490 morning afternoon or whatever the hell 76 00:04:07,350 --> 00:04:05,800 it is I can worry how you did look now 77 00:04:08,580 --> 00:04:07,360 we're both very heavily jet-lagged you 78 00:04:10,230 --> 00:04:08,590 can see look I'm bleeding to death 79 00:04:11,580 --> 00:04:10,240 through my eyes can you see that it's oh 80 00:04:13,590 --> 00:04:11,590 yeah well I think call me a jet lag is 81 00:04:15,420 --> 00:04:13,600 probably a misnomer I mean I'm happily 82 00:04:17,819 --> 00:04:15,430 hungover as well but I guess of the 83 00:04:21,420 --> 00:04:17,829 territory i suppose and then this dish 84 00:04:22,860 --> 00:04:21,430 George hi George hey going up the number 85 00:04:24,330 --> 00:04:22,870 never seen him in a different cities 86 00:04:28,500 --> 00:04:24,340 always got a great selection of suits 87 00:04:33,870 --> 00:04:28,510 it's painted on and do you think he is 88 00:04:35,700 --> 00:04:33,880 the skeptical Bob Hope I'm not sure he's 89 00:04:37,050 --> 00:04:35,710 amazing he's done a remarkable job he's 90 00:04:38,970 --> 00:04:37,060 been introducing everybody running as a 91 00:04:40,950 --> 00:04:38,980 bespoke song for them you know it's been 92 00:04:42,420 --> 00:04:40,960 a lot of fun I should record my before I 93 00:04:44,190 --> 00:04:42,430 went on yesterday was actually more keen 94 00:04:46,800 --> 00:04:44,200 to hear what George had to say you know 95 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:46,810 he's fantastic guy it's difficult to 96 00:04:50,760 --> 00:04:48,970 bring together skeptic ality and humor 97 00:04:53,100 --> 00:04:50,770 because Papa scientists or think you 98 00:04:54,450 --> 00:04:53,110 taking the piss and people who would 99 00:04:56,430 --> 00:04:54,460 like some comedy think you're being too 100 00:04:57,659 --> 00:04:56,440 serious no it's not necessarily i think 101 00:04:59,580 --> 00:04:57,669 that you know this is degree of 102 00:05:02,940 --> 00:04:59,590 intelligence and fun and you know people 103 00:05:04,470 --> 00:05:02,950 who are I've got a I say a more open 104 00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:04,480 view of the world ten people who 105 00:05:07,770 --> 00:05:06,010 actually enjoy bitter laugh anyway so 106 00:05:09,930 --> 00:05:07,780 I've always found that when I was 107 00:05:12,210 --> 00:05:09,940 speaking to skeptics that you know humor 108 00:05:14,700 --> 00:05:12,220 goes hand in hand I was watching your 109 00:05:16,770 --> 00:05:14,710 talk yesterday and a few things 110 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:16,780 surprised me we'll get to the bomb 111 00:05:20,670 --> 00:05:18,970 detector later but you're saying that if 112 00:05:22,680 --> 00:05:20,680 you see a pattern in your brain is 113 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:22,690 fooled by that pattern it's as if that 114 00:05:25,950 --> 00:05:24,490 pattern really does exist even if it is 115 00:05:27,390 --> 00:05:25,960 an illusion is that correct or something 116 00:05:29,880 --> 00:05:27,400 yeah that's it more that's why i was 117 00:05:31,950 --> 00:05:29,890 saying i mean the the thing is that you 118 00:05:33,630 --> 00:05:31,960 know whereas i experiencing happening is 119 00:05:35,370 --> 00:05:33,640 clearly clearly happening in your brain 120 00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:35,380 and actually there are some physiology 121 00:05:39,600 --> 00:05:37,330 to show that for example very simple 122 00:05:42,030 --> 00:05:39,610 visual illusions you can go in with kind 123 00:05:43,409 --> 00:05:42,040 of electrodes and find nerve circuits 124 00:05:45,420 --> 00:05:43,419 which are actually active when you're 125 00:05:46,650 --> 00:05:45,430 perceiving an illusory thing so as far 126 00:05:48,360 --> 00:05:46,660 as the brain is concerned there is an 127 00:05:50,310 --> 00:05:48,370 event going on and so it perceives that 128 00:05:51,750 --> 00:05:50,320 and you note all intents and purposes 129 00:05:53,460 --> 00:05:51,760 what's the difference between a loser 130 00:05:55,260 --> 00:05:53,470 event and a real event if it's all 131 00:05:56,580 --> 00:05:55,270 generating the same activity and is this 132 00:05:58,200 --> 00:05:56,590 is going along with the whole brain in a 133 00:05:59,550 --> 00:05:58,210 jar theory like if my brains in jars 134 00:06:00,660 --> 00:05:59,560 somewhere and I'm imagine I'm 135 00:06:02,790 --> 00:06:00,670 interviewing me now 136 00:06:04,260 --> 00:06:02,800 that's as it's that that doesn't change 137 00:06:06,420 --> 00:06:04,270 the reality because I'm still deciding 138 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:06,430 to interview you even if my brains and 139 00:06:10,410 --> 00:06:08,890 jar somewhere see that's basically what 140 00:06:12,210 --> 00:06:10,420 I got off watching a discovery channel 141 00:06:13,530 --> 00:06:12,220 show now I got the wrong end of the 142 00:06:14,940 --> 00:06:13,540 popular call to stick there and I've 143 00:06:16,860 --> 00:06:14,950 better aberrant browned the bush and set 144 00:06:17,940 --> 00:06:16,870 fire to with it well then you know your 145 00:06:19,290 --> 00:06:17,950 abscess for I mean when there is no 146 00:06:20,640 --> 00:06:19,300 consensus about the relationship between 147 00:06:21,870 --> 00:06:20,650 mine and brain and there are various 148 00:06:23,100 --> 00:06:21,880 theories about how this could happen I 149 00:06:25,050 --> 00:06:23,110 mean look the basically issue is we 150 00:06:26,970 --> 00:06:25,060 don't have a very good idea about how a 151 00:06:28,680 --> 00:06:26,980 thing a material thing like the brain 152 00:06:30,690 --> 00:06:28,690 can create something na mature like 153 00:06:32,520 --> 00:06:30,700 consciousness and have we way of testing 154 00:06:33,810 --> 00:06:32,530 that no not really in the slightest I 155 00:06:35,550 --> 00:06:33,820 mean the all you can ever do is test 156 00:06:36,540 --> 00:06:35,560 output in terms of behavior or 157 00:06:37,860 --> 00:06:36,550 electrophysiology and all the 158 00:06:39,270 --> 00:06:37,870 electrophysiology is never going to give 159 00:06:41,340 --> 00:06:39,280 you consciousness is it's never going to 160 00:06:42,630 --> 00:06:41,350 tell you what someone's thinking all 161 00:06:44,400 --> 00:06:42,640 you've got is just this core 162 00:06:47,040 --> 00:06:44,410 immeasurable kind of you know physical 163 00:06:48,780 --> 00:06:47,050 event I'm behavior course is equally in 164 00:06:49,740 --> 00:06:48,790 you know you can't know what some was 165 00:06:51,630 --> 00:06:49,750 actually thinking when they're doing 166 00:06:54,240 --> 00:06:51,640 that so the problem consciousness and 167 00:06:55,950 --> 00:06:54,250 subjectivity is always going to elude a 168 00:06:58,500 --> 00:06:55,960 real good song to pick investigation as 169 00:07:00,180 --> 00:06:58,510 far as I believe so yeah the questions 170 00:07:02,460 --> 00:07:00,190 of the brain that jar duplicating brains 171 00:07:04,650 --> 00:07:02,470 transporting brains you know these are 172 00:07:06,690 --> 00:07:04,660 all thought experiments which induce 173 00:07:08,130 --> 00:07:06,700 different kind of ideas about you know 174 00:07:09,900 --> 00:07:08,140 what would happen if you really could 175 00:07:11,940 --> 00:07:09,910 actually you know duplicate something 176 00:07:13,560 --> 00:07:11,950 that the material issue thought 177 00:07:15,090 --> 00:07:13,570 experiments reminded me the famous 178 00:07:16,590 --> 00:07:15,100 thought experiment about where you push 179 00:07:18,090 --> 00:07:16,600 the fat guy and found the train to save 180 00:07:19,830 --> 00:07:18,100 a group of people yeah sure why is it 181 00:07:22,110 --> 00:07:19,840 always a fat guy why isn't the skies 182 00:07:23,580 --> 00:07:22,120 well why isn't the skinny woman at the 183 00:07:25,500 --> 00:07:23,590 opposite you don't like why is it always 184 00:07:26,880 --> 00:07:25,510 a fat guy why he has to be substantial 185 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:26,890 enough to stop the train I suppose but 186 00:07:30,990 --> 00:07:29,290 yeah it's not fascism in any way no is 187 00:07:33,240 --> 00:07:31,000 this lee she wasn't logic of experiment 188 00:07:34,890 --> 00:07:33,250 but yeah it so it's a very another 189 00:07:36,690 --> 00:07:34,900 example of an experiment which just 190 00:07:38,700 --> 00:07:36,700 flips our rationality flips our 191 00:07:40,770 --> 00:07:38,710 reasoning very quickly and what seems 192 00:07:43,140 --> 00:07:40,780 such a obvious conclusion suddenly seems 193 00:07:45,000 --> 00:07:43,150 totally not obvious when you have that 194 00:07:47,910 --> 00:07:45,010 sort of a thing what drew you to this 195 00:07:50,250 --> 00:07:47,920 field why did you want to find out about 196 00:07:51,660 --> 00:07:50,260 what we perceive to be reality and make 197 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:51,670 assumptions which can never be proven 198 00:07:55,380 --> 00:07:53,530 that's quite a stick to beat yer 199 00:07:57,840 --> 00:07:55,390 software yeah I think the thing for me 200 00:08:00,630 --> 00:07:57,850 is that you know what we really enjoy is 201 00:08:03,810 --> 00:08:00,640 the peculiarities of consciousness I've 202 00:08:05,130 --> 00:08:03,820 always been really that was somebody 203 00:08:06,690 --> 00:08:05,140 going by the way not me speaking I I 204 00:08:09,510 --> 00:08:06,700 think you said I'm going to have a bomb 205 00:08:10,860 --> 00:08:09,520 hey sexy you know these guys in Vegas 206 00:08:13,620 --> 00:08:10,870 see what happens in Vegas stays in Vegas 207 00:08:15,630 --> 00:08:13,630 no I I think that your question it 208 00:08:17,610 --> 00:08:15,640 the you know I've always been really 209 00:08:19,290 --> 00:08:17,620 interested in the macabre the 210 00:08:21,150 --> 00:08:19,300 supernatural the strange the 211 00:08:22,740 --> 00:08:21,160 peculiarities of human thinking have you 212 00:08:24,300 --> 00:08:22,750 yourself at her had a paranormal 213 00:08:25,650 --> 00:08:24,310 experience that led you to want to do 214 00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:25,660 this or that was just something you're 215 00:08:28,770 --> 00:08:27,370 interested in no never of course I mean 216 00:08:29,940 --> 00:08:28,780 I've had experiences which I interpreted 217 00:08:31,950 --> 00:08:29,950 the time of it could have been paranoid 218 00:08:33,930 --> 00:08:31,960 but no I don't believe categorically 219 00:08:36,150 --> 00:08:33,940 that there's any paranormal event or 220 00:08:37,830 --> 00:08:36,160 supernatural events now is there an area 221 00:08:39,870 --> 00:08:37,840 of the paranormal that does fascinate it 222 00:08:42,180 --> 00:08:39,880 was fast study goes is it lights in the 223 00:08:43,830 --> 00:08:42,190 sky is that the weird feeling in a room 224 00:08:46,320 --> 00:08:43,840 or is it all the way people react with 225 00:08:48,390 --> 00:08:46,330 each other no i said i don't really 226 00:08:51,330 --> 00:08:48,400 think there is any legitimate phenomenon 227 00:08:52,560 --> 00:08:51,340 which is scientifically credible but i 228 00:08:54,300 --> 00:08:52,570 am fascinated with the way that people 229 00:08:55,680 --> 00:08:54,310 think in a paranormal way and I want to 230 00:08:57,510 --> 00:08:55,690 know why that's the case with you know 231 00:08:58,860 --> 00:08:57,520 when they've got all the evidence why do 232 00:09:01,170 --> 00:08:58,870 they kind of disregard that and 233 00:09:02,820 --> 00:09:01,180 entertain these bizarre notions so to me 234 00:09:04,710 --> 00:09:02,830 the really interesting question is not 235 00:09:06,270 --> 00:09:04,720 if it exists I mean clearly I don't 236 00:09:07,980 --> 00:09:06,280 think that it does because it's actually 237 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:07,990 trying to understand why people believe 238 00:09:10,890 --> 00:09:09,130 these sorts of things and I think that's 239 00:09:12,900 --> 00:09:10,900 a much more deeper interesting question 240 00:09:14,940 --> 00:09:12,910 about the nature of the mind well I have 241 00:09:16,770 --> 00:09:14,950 mentioned but you go visit the Shaymin 242 00:09:19,620 --> 00:09:16,780 in South America and ever I don't take a 243 00:09:21,210 --> 00:09:19,630 similar type hallucinogenic drug but 244 00:09:23,640 --> 00:09:21,220 they'll have exactly the same experience 245 00:09:25,110 --> 00:09:23,650 now that pharmacology explains a little 246 00:09:26,940 --> 00:09:25,120 bit but to have the exactly the same 247 00:09:28,920 --> 00:09:26,950 experience to me seems quite odd well 248 00:09:32,250 --> 00:09:28,930 yeah I've never heard that before and I 249 00:09:34,500 --> 00:09:32,260 was true I would have to really kind of 250 00:09:35,460 --> 00:09:34,510 question it but it's something that 251 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:35,470 sounds like something it could be of 252 00:09:38,490 --> 00:09:37,090 interest mmm hope you got some people 253 00:09:40,050 --> 00:09:38,500 would chairs coming and it looked it's 254 00:09:42,300 --> 00:09:40,060 not exactly a Jerry Springer crab but it 255 00:09:43,770 --> 00:09:42,310 could get loud here but um I'll make it 256 00:09:45,690 --> 00:09:43,780 worth it yes I think we should we'll 257 00:09:47,310 --> 00:09:45,700 head away from the people waving chairs 258 00:09:48,750 --> 00:09:47,320 which in life is I think that's an 259 00:09:49,950 --> 00:09:48,760 evolutionary thing you learn to do don't 260 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:49,960 you think that's right we evolved to 261 00:09:53,970 --> 00:09:51,730 avoid people carrying chairs there in 262 00:09:56,550 --> 00:09:53,980 the Pleistocene period when we evolved 263 00:09:58,590 --> 00:09:56,560 as a species at tam strand it was the 264 00:10:00,450 --> 00:09:58,600 first time I heard about the bomb 265 00:10:02,280 --> 00:10:00,460 detectors that were basically water 266 00:10:04,020 --> 00:10:02,290 water dowsing rods that's right yeah and 267 00:10:05,220 --> 00:10:04,030 I thought well that was the last letter 268 00:10:07,290 --> 00:10:05,230 here that because it's socially they'll 269 00:10:09,720 --> 00:10:07,300 never go ahead and next thing I know 270 00:10:11,250 --> 00:10:09,730 it's going to England and there's 85 271 00:10:12,120 --> 00:10:11,260 million dollars being spent on that give 272 00:10:13,530 --> 00:10:12,130 us a bit of the background of this 273 00:10:15,510 --> 00:10:13,540 because I thought it was so ridiculous 274 00:10:16,710 --> 00:10:15,520 it would never gone ahead yeah you would 275 00:10:18,740 --> 00:10:16,720 think so you'd imagine that something 276 00:10:21,450 --> 00:10:18,750 which was so obviously a complete fraud 277 00:10:23,730 --> 00:10:21,460 would just die death but no it what 278 00:10:25,560 --> 00:10:23,740 happened was that these individuals were 279 00:10:26,450 --> 00:10:25,570 after you know an investigation when 280 00:10:28,370 --> 00:10:26,460 James Randi 281 00:10:29,930 --> 00:10:28,380 exposing of their activities but they 282 00:10:31,520 --> 00:10:29,940 were kicked out of the US and then an 283 00:10:33,260 --> 00:10:31,530 offshoot of various members who work for 284 00:10:35,930 --> 00:10:33,270 the original company set up in England 285 00:10:38,300 --> 00:10:35,940 and there was at least two to three 286 00:10:39,530 --> 00:10:38,310 companies formed which were selling 287 00:10:41,030 --> 00:10:39,540 devices which to all intents and 288 00:10:43,250 --> 00:10:41,040 purposes if you weren't scientifically 289 00:10:45,410 --> 00:10:43,260 literate they looked as if they were a 290 00:10:47,000 --> 00:10:45,420 scientific you know devices of some form 291 00:10:48,650 --> 00:10:47,010 but they were based on the principle of 292 00:10:49,610 --> 00:10:48,660 dowsing which is a pendulum which swings 293 00:10:52,880 --> 00:10:49,620 when you think you've encountered 294 00:10:54,800 --> 00:10:52,890 something and so what we discovered is 295 00:10:57,710 --> 00:10:54,810 that they had been actively selling 296 00:11:00,170 --> 00:10:57,720 these to the Iraqi security forces to 297 00:11:03,890 --> 00:11:00,180 use these to basically screen for bombed 298 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:03,900 for bombs and suicide bomber car so they 299 00:11:07,720 --> 00:11:05,490 have them use a checkpoint so they 300 00:11:10,310 --> 00:11:07,730 forgot you know they've given up all 301 00:11:11,810 --> 00:11:10,320 intensive security and searching cars 302 00:11:13,700 --> 00:11:11,820 and they're just pointing these dowsing 303 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:13,710 rods of the cars the consequence was 304 00:11:17,180 --> 00:11:14,970 that literally hundreds of people were 305 00:11:18,950 --> 00:11:17,190 losing their lives and I got involved 306 00:11:20,510 --> 00:11:18,960 because the New York Times did an expose 307 00:11:22,610 --> 00:11:20,520 II on this because the contract to the 308 00:11:24,320 --> 00:11:22,620 Iraqi government was 85 million dollars 309 00:11:25,730 --> 00:11:24,330 which was a lot of money but there were 310 00:11:28,010 --> 00:11:25,740 hundreds and hundreds of people dying 311 00:11:29,870 --> 00:11:28,020 because look into any corruption in the 312 00:11:31,700 --> 00:11:29,880 in the string of the Iraqi government 313 00:11:33,920 --> 00:11:31,710 led by Benson because that sounds like a 314 00:11:35,210 --> 00:11:33,930 lot of money and I'm not with I don't 315 00:11:36,200 --> 00:11:35,220 know where where that was going I mean 316 00:11:37,280 --> 00:11:36,210 it wouldn't have all been going to the 317 00:11:39,050 --> 00:11:37,290 firm there might have been a bit lost 318 00:11:39,830 --> 00:11:39,060 along the way oh I absolutely think so 319 00:11:42,080 --> 00:11:39,840 there must have been a lot of 320 00:11:43,370 --> 00:11:42,090 backhanders going down there and there's 321 00:11:45,200 --> 00:11:43,380 a lot of questions which need to be 322 00:11:47,960 --> 00:11:45,210 asked us so for example why do they get 323 00:11:49,820 --> 00:11:47,970 a export order why did they get license 324 00:11:52,340 --> 00:11:49,830 from the British government from the 325 00:11:53,750 --> 00:11:52,350 department training industry and you 326 00:11:55,730 --> 00:11:53,760 know why was the the device is 327 00:11:56,990 --> 00:11:55,740 sanctioned by the College of Engineers 328 00:11:58,550 --> 00:11:57,000 so there was something a little bit 329 00:11:59,930 --> 00:11:58,560 strange about the whole process is it 330 00:12:02,030 --> 00:11:59,940 something that maybe just fell through 331 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:02,040 the bureaucratic cracks I think that's 332 00:12:06,140 --> 00:12:03,090 probably mature I don't think there was 333 00:12:08,060 --> 00:12:06,150 any malicious intent in terms of the the 334 00:12:09,260 --> 00:12:08,070 you know the government I think it was 335 00:12:10,700 --> 00:12:09,270 just one of these examples that they 336 00:12:12,560 --> 00:12:10,710 hadn't really scrutinize what was going 337 00:12:13,850 --> 00:12:12,570 on you're not normally an activist on 338 00:12:15,590 --> 00:12:13,860 this level you said it just happened to 339 00:12:17,330 --> 00:12:15,600 be down the road from who you live yeah 340 00:12:19,580 --> 00:12:17,340 that's basically true I mean I'm an 341 00:12:21,980 --> 00:12:19,590 academic but then after reading new york 342 00:12:23,270 --> 00:12:21,990 times i discovered the chap who is and 343 00:12:24,590 --> 00:12:23,280 the company was based literally just 344 00:12:27,380 --> 00:12:24,600 down the road from me so i blogged about 345 00:12:29,990 --> 00:12:27,390 it to my great surprise he commented on 346 00:12:31,580 --> 00:12:30,000 the blog his name is jim mccormick he 347 00:12:32,810 --> 00:12:31,590 said come down I'll prove it works and 348 00:12:35,180 --> 00:12:32,820 so I thought well here's an opportunity 349 00:12:37,970 --> 00:12:35,190 to sort of expose what is clearly in my 350 00:12:39,750 --> 00:12:37,980 view a scab so I contacted the BBC and 351 00:12:42,090 --> 00:12:39,760 the Newsnight team we've got 352 00:12:44,820 --> 00:12:42,100 together and we we had a corresponds 353 00:12:46,830 --> 00:12:44,830 with the McCormick try to supper kind of 354 00:12:49,230 --> 00:12:46,840 an expose a you know when he's 355 00:12:50,430 --> 00:12:49,240 confronted with what he's done end up 356 00:12:53,550 --> 00:12:50,440 turning up filming and then broadcast 357 00:12:55,230 --> 00:12:53,560 and Jerry 2010 on the basis of that he 358 00:12:58,260 --> 00:12:55,240 was arrested and the government 359 00:13:00,570 --> 00:12:58,270 immediately impose a export order bad 360 00:13:03,630 --> 00:13:00,580 and that's what happened to in two and 361 00:13:05,940 --> 00:13:03,640 half years ago now that export order bad 362 00:13:08,310 --> 00:13:05,950 was really only for sales to Iraq in 363 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:08,320 Afghanistan in the meantime you know 364 00:13:11,850 --> 00:13:09,610 these companies are still selling these 365 00:13:13,680 --> 00:13:11,860 devices to other companies most notably 366 00:13:15,270 --> 00:13:13,690 net Mexico but that I got a phone call 367 00:13:16,440 --> 00:13:15,280 two days ago just before I flew out to 368 00:13:17,700 --> 00:13:16,450 town from the police because they're 369 00:13:19,020 --> 00:13:17,710 given a statement to them in February 370 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:19,030 telling me that they were going to 371 00:13:22,860 --> 00:13:21,610 actually make a prosecution against Jim 372 00:13:25,170 --> 00:13:22,870 McCormack in fact they went not just 373 00:13:26,190 --> 00:13:25,180 Richard McCormack but all of them so it 374 00:13:28,140 --> 00:13:26,200 wasn't just his company was all the 375 00:13:30,060 --> 00:13:28,150 other companies doing it and it all 376 00:13:30,990 --> 00:13:30,070 looks like it's going to I think that 377 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:31,000 people are definitely going to end up 378 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:33,250 President openness and how does it feel 379 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:35,290 as someone who's been academic just 380 00:13:38,190 --> 00:13:36,850 suddenly put your head on the block be 381 00:13:40,440 --> 00:13:38,200 the face of something that's been the 382 00:13:41,850 --> 00:13:40,450 pointy end of the stick for change well 383 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:41,860 I'm nervous about it I don't feel 384 00:13:46,080 --> 00:13:43,210 comfortable about it's not what I have 385 00:13:49,200 --> 00:13:46,090 sought to do I I speak in public and I 386 00:13:51,420 --> 00:13:49,210 obviously do events like this but it's 387 00:13:53,070 --> 00:13:51,430 kind of gratifying to know that these 388 00:13:54,960 --> 00:13:53,080 sorts of issues do make a real 389 00:13:56,280 --> 00:13:54,970 difference because you know that people 390 00:13:57,630 --> 00:13:56,290 believe all sorts of nonsense and I'm 391 00:13:59,790 --> 00:13:57,640 not I'm not one of these people need to 392 00:14:01,530 --> 00:13:59,800 sort of radical stupid thinking you know 393 00:14:03,270 --> 00:14:01,540 people are stupid and that's that's the 394 00:14:05,220 --> 00:14:03,280 nature being human but in this situation 395 00:14:07,410 --> 00:14:05,230 this is a cynical attempt to exploit 396 00:14:08,670 --> 00:14:07,420 naivety of people with a scientific 397 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:08,680 looking device which has ended up 398 00:14:12,060 --> 00:14:11,050 costing fell in our lives so I think in 399 00:14:14,430 --> 00:14:12,070 that situation are going to feel some 400 00:14:15,900 --> 00:14:14,440 degrees you know smugness replace people 401 00:14:17,910 --> 00:14:15,910 can go and follow the story that you've 402 00:14:19,410 --> 00:14:17,920 uncovered well yeah I mean you can you 403 00:14:20,910 --> 00:14:19,420 can find a my blog but just google 404 00:14:22,650 --> 00:14:20,920 google the whole bomb detecting thing 405 00:14:25,440 --> 00:14:22,660 google me and you'll find the whole 406 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:25,450 catalog and it's remarkable in fact that 407 00:14:28,350 --> 00:14:26,650 the story gets even better but I'm 408 00:14:30,270 --> 00:14:28,360 unfortunate I'm not allowed to tell you 409 00:14:31,710 --> 00:14:30,280 about until februari when it all exposes 410 00:14:33,540 --> 00:14:31,720 so the story isn't over yet there's more 411 00:14:35,190 --> 00:14:33,550 to be uncovered and for people out there 412 00:14:36,330 --> 00:14:35,200 at their own level at their grassroots I 413 00:14:37,800 --> 00:14:36,340 might say something that the local 414 00:14:39,750 --> 00:14:37,810 council or something they find a bit odd 415 00:14:41,310 --> 00:14:39,760 how much you advice to them to get 416 00:14:42,600 --> 00:14:41,320 involved and maybe try and change things 417 00:14:43,860 --> 00:14:42,610 a little bit for what you think is the 418 00:14:45,900 --> 00:14:43,870 better yeah I've been asked this 419 00:14:47,460 --> 00:14:45,910 question last night as well and so again 420 00:14:49,620 --> 00:14:47,470 wanted to know what can they do to make 421 00:14:50,820 --> 00:14:49,630 a difference and I would just I would 422 00:14:52,620 --> 00:14:50,830 just say look try and be reasonable 423 00:14:53,160 --> 00:14:52,630 about things and understand that people 424 00:14:57,180 --> 00:14:53,170 do 425 00:14:59,759 --> 00:14:57,190 cost-benefit analysis you know how much 426 00:15:01,470 --> 00:14:59,769 harm has been done here if it's doing no 427 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:01,480 one any harm than allow people be stupid 428 00:15:04,710 --> 00:15:03,130 in their beliefs because you know you 429 00:15:07,290 --> 00:15:04,720 shouldn't go around trying to change 430 00:15:08,759 --> 00:15:07,300 people's ideas but if it looks like 431 00:15:10,769 --> 00:15:08,769 there's a clear or travesty of justice 432 00:15:12,569 --> 00:15:10,779 or someone who's been exploited then you 433 00:15:14,400 --> 00:15:12,579 must do something to stop it and and 434 00:15:16,230 --> 00:15:14,410 then I would just as I say contact 435 00:15:18,360 --> 00:15:16,240 authorities or you know get it can get 436 00:15:21,240 --> 00:15:18,370 other people to to examine the evidence 437 00:15:22,980 --> 00:15:21,250 and a former group because once you know 438 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:22,990 there's a group of you then you don't 439 00:15:26,819 --> 00:15:24,730 seem like this isolated kind of ranting 440 00:15:28,230 --> 00:15:26,829 person you know it becomes an issue and 441 00:15:30,569 --> 00:15:28,240 then build up for the grassroots level 442 00:15:32,340 --> 00:15:30,579 and a website I'd like to recommend that 443 00:15:34,170 --> 00:15:32,350 is a might help give you the tools for 444 00:15:35,460 --> 00:15:34,180 that oh well I mean there are a lot of 445 00:15:38,250 --> 00:15:35,470 them out there if you just if you just 446 00:15:39,930 --> 00:15:38,260 our blog for a skeptical thinking James 447 00:15:41,460 --> 00:15:39,940 Randi organized at the forum on the 448 00:15:44,009 --> 00:15:41,470 James or any organization is pretty good 449 00:15:45,660 --> 00:15:44,019 but Bruce would thanks for your time as 450 00:15:48,600 --> 00:15:45,670 we've learned a lot about furniture 451 00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:48,610 removal here this afternoon and is there 452 00:15:53,009 --> 00:15:51,010 a cure for jet lag or is every possible 453 00:15:54,900 --> 00:15:53,019 cure for jet lag Justin yeah I have a 454 00:15:58,680 --> 00:15:54,910 hundred percent the curious to buy my 455 00:16:00,180 --> 00:15:58,690 book the self elution which is now okay 456 00:16:01,530 --> 00:16:00,190 and if your head is in the jar your 457 00:16:03,120 --> 00:16:01,540 shoes still should be able to read it 458 00:16:07,070 --> 00:16:03,130 these that's all right thank you very 459 00:16:10,940 --> 00:16:08,870 looked at there's lots of silly stuff 460 00:16:12,620 --> 00:16:10,950 going on in the lounge where late night 461 00:16:13,790 --> 00:16:12,630 skeptics hang and we've got a late 462 00:16:16,160 --> 00:16:13,800 nights kept because it's got some 463 00:16:17,390 --> 00:16:16,170 interesting stories here but I was 464 00:16:19,670 --> 00:16:17,400 pointed to you you got to talk to this 465 00:16:21,860 --> 00:16:19,680 guy he did a show with Uri Geller in 466 00:16:23,060 --> 00:16:21,870 Russia who are you and what the hell are 467 00:16:25,700 --> 00:16:23,070 you doing in the former Soviet Union 468 00:16:27,950 --> 00:16:25,710 with Uri Geller yeah I was in the 469 00:16:31,070 --> 00:16:27,960 Ukraine my name is Jim under now and I'm 470 00:16:32,570 --> 00:16:31,080 the head and founder of the independent 471 00:16:34,910 --> 00:16:32,580 investigations group and i run the 472 00:16:36,980 --> 00:16:34,920 center for inquiry in los angeles mmm 473 00:16:39,860 --> 00:16:36,990 look and you doing a lot of work there 474 00:16:42,890 --> 00:16:39,870 how does that get you working with you 475 00:16:45,170 --> 00:16:42,900 regular well they've been doing the show 476 00:16:48,140 --> 00:16:45,180 called battle of the psychics in Kiev 477 00:16:50,390 --> 00:16:48,150 for something like eight or nine years 478 00:16:52,610 --> 00:16:50,400 those are the greco-roman wrestling kind 479 00:16:55,060 --> 00:16:52,620 of thing a physical contest with each 480 00:16:57,710 --> 00:16:55,070 other arm wrestling mr. three Falls 481 00:16:59,960 --> 00:16:57,720 wouldn't that be wonderful actually some 482 00:17:01,550 --> 00:16:59,970 of the tests they did were fantastic one 483 00:17:03,950 --> 00:17:01,560 of the one of the tests they put the 484 00:17:06,290 --> 00:17:03,960 psychics through they had to choose the 485 00:17:10,190 --> 00:17:06,300 right fire extinguisher to use in a 486 00:17:11,870 --> 00:17:10,200 randomly set fire and if they chose the 487 00:17:13,790 --> 00:17:11,880 wrong thing you know it sort of blew up 488 00:17:15,740 --> 00:17:13,800 in their face a little bit literally and 489 00:17:18,020 --> 00:17:15,750 I thought that was the greatest thing in 490 00:17:19,820 --> 00:17:18,030 the world how do you how did they set 491 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:19,830 the randomly set fire to the computer 492 00:17:23,390 --> 00:17:21,690 randomly fire off a fire underneath 493 00:17:24,890 --> 00:17:23,400 something well they would out there but 494 00:17:29,090 --> 00:17:24,900 let's say they would set it this was at 495 00:17:31,400 --> 00:17:29,100 a firefighting facility and they would 496 00:17:34,600 --> 00:17:31,410 set a grease fire and the psychics would 497 00:17:36,530 --> 00:17:34,610 have to pick the black box which had the 498 00:17:38,150 --> 00:17:36,540 extinguisher in it best suited to 499 00:17:42,460 --> 00:17:38,160 putting out a grease fire and if they 500 00:17:45,770 --> 00:17:42,470 chose the wrong box randomly like a ball 501 00:17:47,090 --> 00:17:45,780 later a petrol a bore up no it was 502 00:17:48,980 --> 00:17:47,100 always something that would put some 503 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:48,990 kind of fire out but like if they would 504 00:17:53,450 --> 00:17:50,850 you know throw up a bucket of water on a 505 00:17:55,580 --> 00:17:53,460 grease fire it flamed up the wait a bit 506 00:17:57,650 --> 00:17:55,590 and that actually happened once and i 507 00:18:00,770 --> 00:17:57,660 think the psychic actually got cinched a 508 00:18:02,690 --> 00:18:00,780 little bit and and what is your feeling 509 00:18:04,820 --> 00:18:02,700 about the psychics involved in that and 510 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:04,830 and uri geller do you think that they 511 00:18:07,880 --> 00:18:06,810 they think they have the genuine powers 512 00:18:09,410 --> 00:18:07,890 and what do you think of you every what 513 00:18:12,860 --> 00:18:09,420 do you think's going on in there yeah I 514 00:18:14,400 --> 00:18:12,870 think they probably all I don't know who 515 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:14,410 knows what's going through their minds 516 00:18:19,860 --> 00:18:18,010 they all seemed to genuinely believe in 517 00:18:21,870 --> 00:18:19,870 their powers I had nothing to do with 518 00:18:24,120 --> 00:18:21,880 setting up the tests or making sure was 519 00:18:27,060 --> 00:18:24,130 tight even would you made the test even 520 00:18:30,330 --> 00:18:27,070 harder III would have made him tighter I 521 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:30,340 mean they had some hard tests but people 522 00:18:33,810 --> 00:18:32,290 were successful in ways that made me 523 00:18:37,140 --> 00:18:33,820 very suspicious about information 524 00:18:40,500 --> 00:18:37,150 leakage so I mean this is a television 525 00:18:42,600 --> 00:18:40,510 show not a scientific experiment so you 526 00:18:44,880 --> 00:18:42,610 know who knows how well was conducted I 527 00:18:47,580 --> 00:18:44,890 felt my role there was to introduce as 528 00:18:49,320 --> 00:18:47,590 much skepticism as possible into the 529 00:18:51,300 --> 00:18:49,330 process without just sitting there 530 00:18:54,150 --> 00:18:51,310 saying this is [\h__\h] every single 531 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:54,160 time Richard Saunders was involved in a 532 00:18:57,540 --> 00:18:55,570 similar type show in Australia called 533 00:19:00,150 --> 00:18:57,550 the one the psychics didn't have that 534 00:19:02,040 --> 00:19:00,160 greater hit rate and so the show wasn't 535 00:19:03,900 --> 00:19:02,050 all that interesting for that reason and 536 00:19:06,360 --> 00:19:03,910 we've been pitching these shows in the 537 00:19:08,760 --> 00:19:06,370 u.s. why I live in Hollywood Center for 538 00:19:10,770 --> 00:19:08,770 inquiry Los Angeles is in Hollywood we 539 00:19:13,230 --> 00:19:10,780 pitch these shows for years and the 540 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:13,240 producers always say okay how long till 541 00:19:17,130 --> 00:19:14,890 somebody passes and wins a million 542 00:19:20,400 --> 00:19:17,140 dollars and I say if I'm running the 543 00:19:23,010 --> 00:19:20,410 test maybe never oh well we can't do 544 00:19:24,360 --> 00:19:23,020 that but if someone does get win the 545 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:24,370 million dollars that means your show 546 00:19:29,040 --> 00:19:26,890 gets a Nobel Prize hahaha right that 547 00:19:31,680 --> 00:19:29,050 would be very excited because there 548 00:19:33,600 --> 00:19:31,690 would be something there is anything 549 00:19:35,250 --> 00:19:33,610 that's even made you wonder for a little 550 00:19:37,380 --> 00:19:35,260 while I mean is there any paranormal 551 00:19:40,260 --> 00:19:37,390 element you've personally in Canada that 552 00:19:43,530 --> 00:19:40,270 it's made you go oh hang on yeah one 553 00:19:46,530 --> 00:19:43,540 time a claimant did not show up for a 554 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:46,540 test so we substituted one of our own 555 00:19:52,350 --> 00:19:48,730 people and it was a Zener card test one 556 00:19:55,110 --> 00:19:52,360 out of five chance for each guest our 557 00:19:58,050 --> 00:19:55,120 own guy just to go through the rehearsal 558 00:20:01,320 --> 00:19:58,060 got the first three right and I said 559 00:20:04,140 --> 00:20:01,330 what the hell is going on here are you 560 00:20:07,620 --> 00:20:04,150 people messing with me and cheating but 561 00:20:09,300 --> 00:20:07,630 it turned out that he just got on this 562 00:20:11,730 --> 00:20:09,310 and credit he let me miss like the next 563 00:20:14,460 --> 00:20:11,740 15 in a row but he got the first three 564 00:20:16,650 --> 00:20:14,470 right and it was kind of fun and wild it 565 00:20:18,300 --> 00:20:16,660 was on such a hot streak there what's 566 00:20:19,890 --> 00:20:18,310 the percentage odds of that is that like 567 00:20:21,700 --> 00:20:19,900 ten percent one percent one in or 568 00:20:25,210 --> 00:20:21,710 whatever yeah it's a 569 00:20:28,899 --> 00:20:25,220 one in five chance each time so you know 570 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:28,909 wanted to know 125 I guess to get three 571 00:20:34,690 --> 00:20:31,730 in a row correct so that was a little 572 00:20:37,269 --> 00:20:34,700 unusual and I've been asking everyone in 573 00:20:40,210 --> 00:20:37,279 this this weekend what psychic ability 574 00:20:42,100 --> 00:20:40,220 or what realm of the paranormal that you 575 00:20:43,750 --> 00:20:42,110 guys claim is not true would you like to 576 00:20:45,580 --> 00:20:43,760 be true would you imagine will be true 577 00:20:47,620 --> 00:20:45,590 is there some element of whew that you 578 00:20:50,950 --> 00:20:47,630 wish would be true oh I wish say 579 00:20:53,649 --> 00:20:50,960 afterlife were true somehow I like to 580 00:20:55,870 --> 00:20:53,659 live forever in one form or another even 581 00:20:59,169 --> 00:20:55,880 if it just meant floating around and 582 00:21:00,370 --> 00:20:59,179 hearing initials but yeah that'd 583 00:21:03,549 --> 00:21:00,380 probably be the best one because that 584 00:21:05,409 --> 00:21:03,559 has an eternal sort of repercussion and 585 00:21:07,269 --> 00:21:05,419 look up musically I've also been asking 586 00:21:08,649 --> 00:21:07,279 people about music here at ten if 587 00:21:10,090 --> 00:21:08,659 there's a song i could play now it 588 00:21:12,370 --> 00:21:10,100 doesn't be a skeptic song it could be 589 00:21:15,070 --> 00:21:12,380 any song what would it be and why would 590 00:21:16,870 --> 00:21:15,080 you want to hear it the song i would 591 00:21:20,169 --> 00:21:16,880 like to hear right this minute is cold 592 00:21:22,299 --> 00:21:20,179 sweat by james brown because i think the 593 00:21:24,039 --> 00:21:22,309 let the man come into the popcorn that's 594 00:21:27,039 --> 00:21:24,049 pretty good by James Barack corn yeah 595 00:21:28,510 --> 00:21:27,049 that'd be good but I like cold sweat 596 00:21:29,529 --> 00:21:28,520 because I think that's what the claimant 597 00:21:31,960 --> 00:21:29,539 tomorrow night's going to be 598 00:21:33,460 --> 00:21:31,970 experiencing yeah yeah you think it's 599 00:21:35,860 --> 00:21:33,470 going to be difficult to to keep 600 00:21:37,269 --> 00:21:35,870 everyone like calm in the face of 601 00:21:39,130 --> 00:21:37,279 someone like that who's presenting a 602 00:21:40,240 --> 00:21:39,140 barely extraordinary claim because I 603 00:21:42,399 --> 00:21:40,250 don't want people to be rude to the 604 00:21:44,980 --> 00:21:42,409 person yeah I mean we really try to be 605 00:21:46,299 --> 00:21:44,990 fairly nice and respectful for people 606 00:21:49,120 --> 00:21:46,309 even though I really don't think 607 00:21:51,430 --> 00:21:49,130 anyone's ever going to pass I think the 608 00:21:53,080 --> 00:21:51,440 egg be on your face when we discover a 609 00:21:54,909 --> 00:21:53,090 new area of physics tomorrow night you 610 00:21:56,110 --> 00:21:54,919 didn't know existed you're gonna be 611 00:21:58,120 --> 00:21:56,120 laughing so when are we gonna be 612 00:22:01,060 --> 00:21:58,130 laughing you're gonna go haha no yeah I 613 00:22:03,310 --> 00:22:01,070 want in on that damn right who the hell 614 00:22:05,769 --> 00:22:03,320 am I to get a Nobel Prize but it put me 615 00:22:07,570 --> 00:22:05,779 on the list yet no I you know I think if 616 00:22:08,830 --> 00:22:07,580 people know that this is a serious thing 617 00:22:10,510 --> 00:22:08,840 and then you know they don't want to 618 00:22:12,490 --> 00:22:10,520 screw it up that they'll they'll be at 619 00:22:15,000 --> 00:22:12,500 least quiet and you've been breaking a 620 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:15,010 cold sweat 621 00:22:28,820 --> 00:22:16,970 that's right thank you much for your 622 00:22:35,040 --> 00:22:32,880 hi I'm a skeptic little Nessa the wee 623 00:22:37,020 --> 00:22:35,050 beastie who lives in the look I want to 624 00:22:39,270 --> 00:22:37,030 talk about monster talk the podcast 625 00:22:41,880 --> 00:22:39,280 skeptically examines monster story oh 626 00:22:44,370 --> 00:22:41,890 listen to it your fancy talk why are you 627 00:22:48,150 --> 00:22:44,380 just watching the Lulu monster shows on 628 00:22:49,710 --> 00:22:48,160 the teller last night huh oh yeah but 629 00:22:51,690 --> 00:22:49,720 but I watched those because they helped 630 00:22:54,630 --> 00:22:51,700 me hone my skeptical don't a bit telling 631 00:22:56,220 --> 00:22:54,640 me I porky pies live look why don't you 632 00:22:57,870 --> 00:22:56,230 go back in that water over there and let 633 00:23:00,090 --> 00:22:57,880 me talk to people about monster talk Oh 634 00:23:02,670 --> 00:23:00,100 does that interest oh it doesn't have 635 00:23:04,890 --> 00:23:02,680 pictures as a podcast I like textures 636 00:23:06,450 --> 00:23:04,900 missile that's proper television look if 637 00:23:08,190 --> 00:23:06,460 you like pictures so much the how come 638 00:23:09,900 --> 00:23:08,200 all the photos of you are so blurry I 639 00:23:12,360 --> 00:23:09,910 don't know what you're talking about a 640 00:23:14,460 --> 00:23:12,370 live a happy picture taken that's that's 641 00:23:16,650 --> 00:23:14,470 probably true I don't want to be on your 642 00:23:19,290 --> 00:23:16,660 show i want to be on britain's got 643 00:23:21,930 --> 00:23:19,300 talent like Susan Boyle I want to sing a 644 00:23:23,370 --> 00:23:21,940 proper Scottish song anyway please check 645 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:23,380 out monster talk from your preferred 646 00:23:37,960 --> 00:23:25,690 podcast aggregator apart from monster 647 00:23:44,180 --> 00:23:41,539 I'm Robert Schaefer I've been a fellow 648 00:23:48,019 --> 00:23:44,190 of Psych off for a long time now psych 649 00:23:50,509 --> 00:23:48,029 out now CSI I've been writing The 650 00:23:52,850 --> 00:23:50,519 Skeptical in The Skeptical Inquirer the 651 00:23:56,600 --> 00:23:52,860 psychic vibrations column for a long 652 00:23:59,419 --> 00:23:56,610 time and it's now out or some of its out 653 00:24:03,200 --> 00:23:59,429 in book form some of the older columns 654 00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:03,210 and i also have a blog called bad UFOs 655 00:24:08,570 --> 00:24:05,730 and i try to keep up to date on the 656 00:24:10,369 --> 00:24:08,580 various crazy UFO claims they're still 657 00:24:12,919 --> 00:24:10,379 going on isn't that amazing after all 658 00:24:15,139 --> 00:24:12,929 these years when do you remember this 659 00:24:18,549 --> 00:24:15,149 whole thing really starting for me 660 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:18,559 personally I was a kid in the 1970s and 661 00:24:23,360 --> 00:24:21,690 in the late 70s especially I remember 662 00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:23,370 the world seemed to be going UFO 663 00:24:28,490 --> 00:24:26,090 craziness I think that was mostly 664 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:28,500 Australia was going UFO crazy at that 665 00:24:33,110 --> 00:24:30,690 point in time although there were some 666 00:24:36,769 --> 00:24:33,120 in the US with the Close Encounters of 667 00:24:39,860 --> 00:24:36,779 the Third Kind oh that's yeah yeah well 668 00:24:42,019 --> 00:24:39,870 is of course it all started way before 669 00:24:44,480 --> 00:24:42,029 that you know in the late forties 670 00:24:46,999 --> 00:24:44,490 kenneth arnold is sighting in Washington 671 00:24:49,340 --> 00:24:47,009 State and then within a few days 672 00:24:51,799 --> 00:24:49,350 everybody you know all the newspapers in 673 00:24:54,769 --> 00:24:51,809 the US and then in other countries were 674 00:24:56,869 --> 00:24:54,779 filled with stories of UFO sightings so 675 00:24:59,570 --> 00:24:56,879 what do you think the fascination is and 676 00:25:01,399 --> 00:24:59,580 I'm a little surprised still going on 677 00:25:03,379 --> 00:25:01,409 but of course there's always every year 678 00:25:05,779 --> 00:25:03,389 you hear about more and more or more 679 00:25:07,700 --> 00:25:05,789 people who claim my first is it but just 680 00:25:09,740 --> 00:25:07,710 because it's so ingrained in popular 681 00:25:12,560 --> 00:25:09,750 culture that's part of it but it's but 682 00:25:17,450 --> 00:25:12,570 it's really much richer than that you 683 00:25:21,830 --> 00:25:17,460 know the 14 researcher Hillary Evans has 684 00:25:24,980 --> 00:25:21,840 said that the UFO mythos looked at in 685 00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:24,990 its you know fullness is the richest set 686 00:25:31,399 --> 00:25:29,129 of you know contemporary myth when you 687 00:25:34,399 --> 00:25:31,409 consider all that has come from it what 688 00:25:39,310 --> 00:25:34,409 has come from it the men in black saucer 689 00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:39,320 crashes Roswell aliens alien abductions 690 00:25:44,920 --> 00:25:42,890 you know uh alien hybrids it just goes 691 00:25:46,450 --> 00:25:44,930 on and on from there it's not just 692 00:25:48,190 --> 00:25:46,460 something a little narrow like Bigfoot 693 00:25:49,750 --> 00:25:48,200 like you know you go out in the forest 694 00:25:52,690 --> 00:25:49,760 and maybe you see Bigfoot maybe you 695 00:25:55,960 --> 00:25:52,700 don't ufos have evolved into this this 696 00:25:58,380 --> 00:25:55,970 enormous richness as a social phenomenon 697 00:26:00,790 --> 00:25:58,390 it's interesting you should say the word 698 00:26:05,350 --> 00:26:00,800 evolved there because I also can't help 699 00:26:07,690 --> 00:26:05,360 that notice that the craft themselves 700 00:26:10,660 --> 00:26:07,700 have evolved over the years what people 701 00:26:12,550 --> 00:26:10,670 report and I wonder and you might have 702 00:26:15,460 --> 00:26:12,560 an opinion about this is because our 703 00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:15,470 technology is advancing and evolving and 704 00:26:20,020 --> 00:26:18,530 surely before too long we'll have the 705 00:26:22,690 --> 00:26:20,030 technology and crafts that make the 706 00:26:24,460 --> 00:26:22,700 original UFOs look positively antiquated 707 00:26:27,910 --> 00:26:24,470 well I don't think that's the case 708 00:26:30,490 --> 00:26:27,920 because the UFOs as reported routinely 709 00:26:32,500 --> 00:26:30,500 violate the laws of motion right they 710 00:26:33,970 --> 00:26:32,510 have you know massless acceleration if 711 00:26:36,790 --> 00:26:33,980 you want to accelerate from a certain 712 00:26:38,530 --> 00:26:36,800 point and you want to go off in you know 713 00:26:40,390 --> 00:26:38,540 to the left well something has to go out 714 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:40,400 to the right to push you to the left I 715 00:26:44,470 --> 00:26:42,650 mean I mean unless something else grabs 716 00:26:47,110 --> 00:26:44,480 you and picks you up or you have 717 00:26:48,610 --> 00:26:47,120 propellers or something but UFOs aren't 718 00:26:51,550 --> 00:26:48,620 supposed to be like that they just kind 719 00:26:53,440 --> 00:26:51,560 of zip around yeah and make right angle 720 00:26:56,500 --> 00:26:53,450 turns you know all of this completely in 721 00:26:58,360 --> 00:26:56,510 violation of laws of motion so I'm quite 722 00:27:01,030 --> 00:26:58,370 sure that our technology is not going to 723 00:27:03,130 --> 00:27:01,040 go anywhere near that until we figure 724 00:27:06,610 --> 00:27:03,140 out how to build a you know a square 725 00:27:09,610 --> 00:27:06,620 circle or or a perpetual motion machine 726 00:27:11,740 --> 00:27:09,620 yeah yes that's what you would need you 727 00:27:13,500 --> 00:27:11,750 would and that you make a very good 728 00:27:16,090 --> 00:27:13,510 point of course our technology is 729 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:16,100 increasing quite a click and we've got 730 00:27:21,370 --> 00:27:18,050 more advanced aircraft but we're still 731 00:27:24,280 --> 00:27:21,380 limited by laws of motion F equals MA 732 00:27:26,050 --> 00:27:24,290 and so on even if you use relativistic 733 00:27:28,930 --> 00:27:26,060 mechanics you're still limited by the 734 00:27:31,330 --> 00:27:28,940 laws of man this was the great out the 735 00:27:33,190 --> 00:27:31,340 great out of that is for the believer to 736 00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:33,200 say our world these creatures have 737 00:27:37,600 --> 00:27:35,450 obviously invented that you know well I 738 00:27:39,370 --> 00:27:37,610 know I know it's crazy as it sounds but 739 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:39,380 I know well way to remember though 740 00:27:44,070 --> 00:27:41,090 what was it talk we heard yesterday 741 00:27:46,870 --> 00:27:44,080 saying about how they limited the 742 00:27:48,430 --> 00:27:46,880 expectation of what any new particles 743 00:27:51,010 --> 00:27:48,440 could be according to the standard law 744 00:27:52,960 --> 00:27:51,020 standard model of quantum mechanics and 745 00:27:55,390 --> 00:27:52,970 is basically these these things that 746 00:27:58,810 --> 00:27:55,400 they're hypothesizing it's just not 747 00:28:00,880 --> 00:27:58,820 realistic so within your situation do 748 00:28:03,730 --> 00:28:00,890 you get many people writing in to you 749 00:28:06,670 --> 00:28:03,740 emails or contacting you with heartfelt 750 00:28:09,490 --> 00:28:06,680 stories of encounters sometimes not so 751 00:28:11,110 --> 00:28:09,500 much specifically to me but Allah you 752 00:28:13,660 --> 00:28:11,120 know the organizations that collect 753 00:28:16,060 --> 00:28:13,670 these reports like Mia fun and some of 754 00:28:18,400 --> 00:28:16,070 the others see how they get a get a fair 755 00:28:20,410 --> 00:28:18,410 number of them and for many people and 756 00:28:22,510 --> 00:28:20,420 even sophisticated people you'd be 757 00:28:25,420 --> 00:28:22,520 surprised they seem to operate on the 758 00:28:28,600 --> 00:28:25,430 conclusion that well I can tell who is 759 00:28:31,210 --> 00:28:28,610 sincere and who is not I can tell who is 760 00:28:32,620 --> 00:28:31,220 credible and who is not now if they can 761 00:28:34,900 --> 00:28:32,630 do this and they're better than any 762 00:28:37,060 --> 00:28:34,910 psychologist in the world mmm because I 763 00:28:40,030 --> 00:28:37,070 think just about every psychologists it 764 00:28:42,790 --> 00:28:40,040 makes you cannot tell sincerity just by 765 00:28:44,670 --> 00:28:42,800 what somebody says and even if they are 766 00:28:48,070 --> 00:28:44,680 sincere that doesn't mean that they're 767 00:28:51,130 --> 00:28:48,080 correct it's so easy to be so you 768 00:28:54,340 --> 00:28:51,140 couldn't so convinced of an error yeah 769 00:28:56,050 --> 00:28:54,350 apps and when you are in error but 770 00:28:57,400 --> 00:28:56,060 you'll convince its reality then you 771 00:28:59,650 --> 00:28:57,410 have all the sincerity in the world 772 00:29:02,530 --> 00:28:59,660 that's right and that's then they go out 773 00:29:04,870 --> 00:29:02,540 and find a support group for either UFO 774 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:04,880 ciders or UFO abductees and they each 775 00:29:09,130 --> 00:29:07,250 tell each other their stories and they 776 00:29:11,020 --> 00:29:09,140 don't even notice all the points you 777 00:29:13,240 --> 00:29:11,030 know of this agreement like one might 778 00:29:14,620 --> 00:29:13,250 say well the aliens have you know big 779 00:29:16,060 --> 00:29:14,630 heads and the other one says they have 780 00:29:19,450 --> 00:29:16,070 small heads you know they're each 781 00:29:21,430 --> 00:29:19,460 supporting the other I did not yes I 782 00:29:25,690 --> 00:29:21,440 think I've heard about this it's is 783 00:29:27,430 --> 00:29:25,700 other meetings group sessions or what 784 00:29:28,720 --> 00:29:27,440 are they call them groups with people 785 00:29:30,610 --> 00:29:28,730 they get together to share their 786 00:29:32,650 --> 00:29:30,620 experience of all certainly let's say 787 00:29:35,500 --> 00:29:32,660 being abducted for example Oh certainly 788 00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:35,510 and and there are even larger ones just 789 00:29:41,260 --> 00:29:38,690 for all UFO things for example in 790 00:29:44,460 --> 00:29:41,270 Phoenix area each year now they have the 791 00:29:47,380 --> 00:29:44,470 international UFO Congress I was there 792 00:29:48,230 --> 00:29:47,390 this year and it's sort of like the anti 793 00:29:50,990 --> 00:29:48,240 Tamia 794 00:29:53,510 --> 00:29:51,000 we're here were skeptical of things that 795 00:29:55,220 --> 00:29:53,520 cannot be proven and they're there you 796 00:29:57,350 --> 00:29:55,230 tell me your story and not love it you 797 00:29:59,990 --> 00:29:57,360 know that's there and in fact there was 798 00:30:02,180 --> 00:30:00,000 even a place there some guy set up a 799 00:30:05,750 --> 00:30:02,190 little business called alien and scalpel 800 00:30:08,090 --> 00:30:05,760 research saddle recent yes and the idea 801 00:30:10,490 --> 00:30:08,100 is when you give them twenty dollars and 802 00:30:12,260 --> 00:30:10,500 they will somehow take a DNA sample from 803 00:30:16,190 --> 00:30:12,270 you and they will tell you you are an 804 00:30:17,750 --> 00:30:16,200 alien hybrid you also have angelic DNA 805 00:30:20,210 --> 00:30:17,760 110 is telling you that they told her 806 00:30:22,549 --> 00:30:20,220 you know she had DNA I don't know what 807 00:30:25,790 --> 00:30:22,559 angels DNA is like but I guess they do 808 00:30:28,940 --> 00:30:25,800 and everything so preposterous is this 809 00:30:30,710 --> 00:30:28,950 and it's it's a large conference just 810 00:30:32,270 --> 00:30:30,720 like this in fact it's probably bigger 811 00:30:34,669 --> 00:30:32,280 than theirs I was about to make the 812 00:30:36,590 --> 00:30:34,679 point these things have no trouble 813 00:30:39,950 --> 00:30:36,600 getting many many attendees do that's 814 00:30:41,660 --> 00:30:39,960 right that's right III guess a lot of 815 00:30:43,730 --> 00:30:41,670 people go along they were very in 816 00:30:45,620 --> 00:30:43,740 varying degrees of belief and interest 817 00:30:47,419 --> 00:30:45,630 in UFO I mean I'm interested in you I 818 00:30:49,790 --> 00:30:47,429 always found it interesting there's a 819 00:30:51,830 --> 00:30:49,800 there's a relatively few people there 820 00:30:53,720 --> 00:30:51,840 while the number of actual skeptics 821 00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:53,730 there would be you know one or two who 822 00:30:59,660 --> 00:30:55,890 might just go out of curiosity like me 823 00:31:02,930 --> 00:30:59,670 but some of the UFO research is the pro 824 00:31:05,299 --> 00:31:02,940 UFO researchers are more or less careful 825 00:31:08,450 --> 00:31:05,309 in the sense that they realize most of 826 00:31:09,950 --> 00:31:08,460 its bogus and they require only you know 827 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:09,960 they require what they consider to be 828 00:31:15,080 --> 00:31:12,210 solid Evans but for them solid evidence 829 00:31:17,330 --> 00:31:15,090 is good testimony yeah you know I'm a 830 00:31:20,090 --> 00:31:17,340 credible person I'm a police officer I'm 831 00:31:22,430 --> 00:31:20,100 a pillar of the community and I saw this 832 00:31:24,530 --> 00:31:22,440 thing land in my backyard and therefore 833 00:31:26,419 --> 00:31:24,540 you know it's true because he's credible 834 00:31:29,690 --> 00:31:26,429 that argument that I've heard so many 835 00:31:32,660 --> 00:31:29,700 times a policeman sword or a pilot sword 836 00:31:34,220 --> 00:31:32,670 and they're trained is trying to absorb 837 00:31:36,500 --> 00:31:34,230 things well who trains them I don't 838 00:31:39,380 --> 00:31:36,510 think so I I don't think that's quite 839 00:31:41,210 --> 00:31:39,390 what people think it is it's such an 840 00:31:43,430 --> 00:31:41,220 easy thing to say to say at least 841 00:31:46,180 --> 00:31:43,440 credible person sort and they have big 842 00:31:48,650 --> 00:31:46,190 they're trained right exactly exactly 843 00:31:51,290 --> 00:31:48,660 well but what many of these people 844 00:31:53,290 --> 00:31:51,300 forget was that even that the delayed J 845 00:31:56,120 --> 00:31:53,300 Allen Hynek who was the Blue Book 846 00:31:57,660 --> 00:31:56,130 Project Blue Book scientific consultant 847 00:32:02,280 --> 00:31:57,670 and he's sort of a hero too 848 00:32:03,690 --> 00:32:02,290 many of the pro UFO people he said after 849 00:32:07,530 --> 00:32:03,700 looking at a number of cases where 850 00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:07,540 pilots had made very serious perceptual 851 00:32:11,180 --> 00:32:09,010 errors you know when they see a meteor 852 00:32:14,820 --> 00:32:11,190 or something like that he wrote that 853 00:32:17,190 --> 00:32:14,830 pilots surprisingly make relatively poor 854 00:32:20,190 --> 00:32:17,200 observers when they're when they hit 855 00:32:22,230 --> 00:32:20,200 with some surprise unusual stimulus 856 00:32:24,900 --> 00:32:22,240 their thought is not G let me analyze 857 00:32:26,400 --> 00:32:24,910 what that thing is a thing is you know 858 00:32:28,380 --> 00:32:26,410 their thought is oh my god I'm going to 859 00:32:32,430 --> 00:32:28,390 collide with everything I better go into 860 00:32:34,350 --> 00:32:32,440 a bank you know and so that's a good 861 00:32:36,630 --> 00:32:34,360 thing to remember because it does come 862 00:32:38,430 --> 00:32:36,640 up quite a lot especially in your game 863 00:32:40,230 --> 00:32:38,440 in my game people will put that argument 864 00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:40,240 and I'll remember that that's a it's a 865 00:32:45,780 --> 00:32:43,210 good thing to remind people and like any 866 00:32:47,520 --> 00:32:45,790 but like you and I would be surprised if 867 00:32:51,240 --> 00:32:47,530 something unexpected happened we may not 868 00:32:53,430 --> 00:32:51,250 remember clearly right which is being 869 00:32:55,800 --> 00:32:53,440 very human of course now if people want 870 00:32:57,390 --> 00:32:55,810 to find out more about what you're up to 871 00:33:00,210 --> 00:32:57,400 what's the best website people can 872 00:33:03,300 --> 00:33:00,220 nervous it well my blog on UFOs is just 873 00:33:06,300 --> 00:33:03,310 called bad UFOs calm and I try to stay 874 00:33:10,350 --> 00:33:06,310 up to date on all the crazy claims there 875 00:33:12,570 --> 00:33:10,360 and I also have a website called the 876 00:33:15,540 --> 00:33:12,580 bunker calm which has more of an archive 877 00:33:20,100 --> 00:33:15,550 of older skeptical texts and things like 878 00:33:21,480 --> 00:33:20,110 that so I'm there's some I think that's 879 00:33:23,850 --> 00:33:21,490 probably the best source of information 880 00:33:27,060 --> 00:33:23,860 on this subject in fact I've been 881 00:33:29,010 --> 00:33:27,070 actually I have quite because I've been 882 00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:29,020 in doing this for a long time I have a 883 00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:32,650 lot of correspondence and things from 884 00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:34,570 well-known ufologists and people like 885 00:33:40,260 --> 00:33:37,210 you know Philip J class and Jalen hi 886 00:33:41,850 --> 00:33:40,270 Nick and so on and so I have been in the 887 00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:41,860 process of scanning these and putting 888 00:33:47,550 --> 00:33:45,130 them as pdfs out as historical documents 889 00:33:50,130 --> 00:33:47,560 to document the history of ufology and 890 00:33:52,950 --> 00:33:50,140 important controversies and so on yeah 891 00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:52,960 and i have i have pages devoted to 892 00:33:57,210 --> 00:33:54,490 certain cases like for example the 893 00:33:59,700 --> 00:33:57,220 Travis Walton UFO story where he claims 894 00:34:03,090 --> 00:33:59,710 it he was out with these people in the 895 00:34:04,770 --> 00:34:03,100 forest and and they stopped they saw UFO 896 00:34:06,120 --> 00:34:04,780 they stopped and he ran out toward it 897 00:34:08,340 --> 00:34:06,130 and it zapped him and someone well the 898 00:34:11,130 --> 00:34:08,350 whole thing is a hoax as it wouldn't 899 00:34:11,820 --> 00:34:11,140 surprise you he'll class spent a lot of 900 00:34:13,560 --> 00:34:11,830 time on this 901 00:34:15,780 --> 00:34:13,570 class of course was one of the founding 902 00:34:18,120 --> 00:34:15,790 fellows of psych up and it was probably 903 00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:18,130 the best known UFO skeptic a white I'm 904 00:34:24,540 --> 00:34:22,570 and so I'm you know putting all this 905 00:34:26,970 --> 00:34:24,550 information that a lot of it was not 906 00:34:29,240 --> 00:34:26,980 previously available put it together why 907 00:34:31,200 --> 00:34:29,250 we think exactly that it's a hoax 908 00:34:33,090 --> 00:34:31,210 fantastic stuff there you are folks 909 00:34:35,460 --> 00:34:33,100 visit those websites if you're 910 00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:35,470 interested in UFOs robert chamber thank 911 00:34:56,280 --> 00:34:54,610 you very much thank you Richard the 912 00:35:00,210 --> 00:34:56,290 Australian skeptics annual convention 913 00:35:02,910 --> 00:35:00,220 for 2012 will be held in melbourne from 914 00:35:06,450 --> 00:35:02,920 friday the 30th of november to sunday 915 00:35:10,470 --> 00:35:06,460 the second of december speakers this 916 00:35:12,570 --> 00:35:10,480 year include James the amazing Randi DJ 917 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:12,580 Grothe president of the James Randi 918 00:35:18,330 --> 00:35:14,890 Educational Foundation Brian Thompson 919 00:35:22,380 --> 00:35:18,340 outreach coordinator from the jf rebecca 920 00:35:25,380 --> 00:35:22,390 watson lawrence loon dr. dre chi dunlop 921 00:35:28,500 --> 00:35:25,390 lynn kelly dr. chrissy wilson dr. ken 922 00:35:31,850 --> 00:35:28,510 harvey choice magazine consumer of the 923 00:35:36,030 --> 00:35:31,860 year award winner adam van langenberg 924 00:35:38,070 --> 00:35:36,040 Richard Saunders and many more for more 925 00:35:41,820 --> 00:35:38,080 information and to book your tickets 926 00:35:46,890 --> 00:35:41,830 which are selling out fast visit w WV 927 00:35:49,950 --> 00:35:46,900 skeptics wordpress com yes folks don't 928 00:35:52,320 --> 00:35:49,960 forget this is your chance to meet James 929 00:36:03,690 --> 00:35:52,330 the amazing Randi and lots of other 930 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:07,090 now it's time for dr. Richie reports 931 00:36:16,360 --> 00:36:12,890 with dr. Rachel Dunlop so here i am at 932 00:36:17,800 --> 00:36:16,370 tam 10 in las vegas and I'm just been 933 00:36:20,050 --> 00:36:17,810 joined by Tim Farley from what's the 934 00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:20,060 harm net has just come off stage from 935 00:36:25,900 --> 00:36:22,970 giving a presentation about the internet 936 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:25,910 and the future of skepticism on the 937 00:36:30,550 --> 00:36:28,610 internet so to me also that's been the 938 00:36:32,530 --> 00:36:30,560 theme of your talks during the weekend 939 00:36:35,920 --> 00:36:32,540 you gave a workshop on Thursday with 940 00:36:37,750 --> 00:36:35,930 Derek kanji know about skeptic tools 941 00:36:40,240 --> 00:36:37,760 related to the internet and you also 942 00:36:43,060 --> 00:36:40,250 have a blog that talks about skeptic 943 00:36:46,720 --> 00:36:43,070 tools room because you are the internet 944 00:36:48,700 --> 00:36:46,730 expert aren't you well I try I try to be 945 00:36:50,860 --> 00:36:48,710 the expert on using the tools that are 946 00:36:52,930 --> 00:36:50,870 available on the internet for skeptical 947 00:36:54,660 --> 00:36:52,940 purposes things that go beyond just 948 00:36:56,770 --> 00:36:54,670 creating a website or creating a blog 949 00:36:58,720 --> 00:36:56,780 clever ways that you can take advantage 950 00:37:01,570 --> 00:36:58,730 of stuff that's out there like Wikipedia 951 00:37:05,800 --> 00:37:01,580 and and browser plugins and things like 952 00:37:07,090 --> 00:37:05,810 that to to do skeptic work so can we 953 00:37:08,290 --> 00:37:07,100 talk about some of those tools because 954 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:08,300 some of the ones you brought up on 955 00:37:13,330 --> 00:37:11,210 Thursday I hadn't heard of there was one 956 00:37:15,670 --> 00:37:13,340 that is sort of like a forum for 957 00:37:17,770 --> 00:37:15,680 skeptics to pose questions and answers 958 00:37:19,630 --> 00:37:17,780 which I had not come across before yeah 959 00:37:21,820 --> 00:37:19,640 it's called skeptic stack exchange it's 960 00:37:23,830 --> 00:37:21,830 actually a whole series of sites called 961 00:37:26,320 --> 00:37:23,840 stack exchange and each one's on a topic 962 00:37:28,630 --> 00:37:26,330 and it was specifically to solve the 963 00:37:31,060 --> 00:37:28,640 problem of question-and-answer sites on 964 00:37:32,890 --> 00:37:31,070 the internet being terrible if you've 965 00:37:34,330 --> 00:37:32,900 ever looked at yahoo answers or any of 966 00:37:36,190 --> 00:37:34,340 the answer question and answer sites 967 00:37:38,230 --> 00:37:36,200 they're just terrible it's just terrible 968 00:37:39,790 --> 00:37:38,240 questions and terrible answers so these 969 00:37:41,800 --> 00:37:39,800 couple of software developers said we 970 00:37:44,370 --> 00:37:41,810 can do a better job and they came up 971 00:37:46,540 --> 00:37:44,380 with this thing and made it all free and 972 00:37:48,970 --> 00:37:46,550 eventually someone they were looking for 973 00:37:50,590 --> 00:37:48,980 other topics and Richard Stelling in the 974 00:37:53,470 --> 00:37:50,600 UK went to them and said hey why don't 975 00:37:54,940 --> 00:37:53,480 we do a skeptic topic and they said yes 976 00:37:56,740 --> 00:37:54,950 and so there's this whole skeptic 977 00:37:58,720 --> 00:37:56,750 section and the neat thing about the 978 00:38:01,990 --> 00:37:58,730 site is is that it's specifically 979 00:38:04,270 --> 00:38:02,000 designed to show up well in Google so 980 00:38:06,160 --> 00:38:04,280 when you put a piece of question on 981 00:38:07,780 --> 00:38:06,170 there and then you google for that 982 00:38:08,720 --> 00:38:07,790 question the stack skeptic stack 983 00:38:11,120 --> 00:38:08,730 exchange 984 00:38:13,220 --> 00:38:11,130 answer will usually be the first result 985 00:38:15,680 --> 00:38:13,230 so we have a bunch of skeptics on their 986 00:38:17,480 --> 00:38:15,690 answering questions and there's a whole 987 00:38:19,910 --> 00:38:17,490 process where the questions get voted on 988 00:38:21,620 --> 00:38:19,920 and people get the scores and it's kind 989 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:21,630 of a game it's almost like Foursquare 990 00:38:24,560 --> 00:38:22,890 one of those games where you can get 991 00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:24,570 badges and things like that so it's kind 992 00:38:31,250 --> 00:38:26,370 of fun you compete to get the best 993 00:38:33,500 --> 00:38:31,260 answers and nice little pithy skeptic 994 00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:33,510 nuggets that don't require a 5,000 word 995 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:35,850 blog post just as like the example I 996 00:38:39,980 --> 00:38:37,530 gave was someone asked the question of 997 00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:39,990 what formal education does l ron hubbard 998 00:38:43,910 --> 00:38:42,450 the Creator Scientology have and there 999 00:38:46,370 --> 00:38:43,920 had been a lot of misinformation about 1000 00:38:47,600 --> 00:38:46,380 that from the church and I when I saw 1001 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:47,610 that question I happen to know the 1002 00:38:50,540 --> 00:38:48,930 answer because there had been an article 1003 00:38:53,060 --> 00:38:50,550 about it recently so I wrote the answer 1004 00:38:55,070 --> 00:38:53,070 up and cited the article and my answer 1005 00:38:56,810 --> 00:38:55,080 was picked by the people on the site and 1006 00:38:59,450 --> 00:38:56,820 now that's the number one result in 1007 00:39:01,730 --> 00:38:59,460 google if you if you look that up and 1008 00:39:03,310 --> 00:39:01,740 it's a skeptical answer and what is the 1009 00:39:06,290 --> 00:39:03,320 answer to me the answer is that 1010 00:39:07,970 --> 00:39:06,300 basically he does not have any advanced 1011 00:39:10,940 --> 00:39:07,980 degrees even though the church claims 1012 00:39:12,950 --> 00:39:10,950 that he does okay he did some college 1013 00:39:14,780 --> 00:39:12,960 but never really finished and the 1014 00:39:16,730 --> 00:39:14,790 interesting thing about that site too is 1015 00:39:18,800 --> 00:39:16,740 that you can write a question and answer 1016 00:39:20,840 --> 00:39:18,810 it yourself right is that and is that 1017 00:39:24,140 --> 00:39:20,850 different to say yahoo answers a 1018 00:39:25,580 --> 00:39:24,150 question yeah they in order to encourage 1019 00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:25,590 people to it's all about knowledge 1020 00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:27,810 sharing it originally was a programmers 1021 00:39:31,340 --> 00:39:29,370 technical site and all these weird 1022 00:39:32,720 --> 00:39:31,350 little super technical questions about 1023 00:39:34,820 --> 00:39:32,730 how do you do this or how do you do that 1024 00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:34,830 and a lot of people have knowledge like 1025 00:39:38,090 --> 00:39:36,450 that and need a place to share it but 1026 00:39:40,220 --> 00:39:38,100 maybe they don't have a blog to post it 1027 00:39:42,350 --> 00:39:40,230 on so you can go to the site if you you 1028 00:39:44,240 --> 00:39:42,360 come up with an interesting piece of 1029 00:39:46,190 --> 00:39:44,250 skeptical knowledge and you don't have a 1030 00:39:48,470 --> 00:39:46,200 blog to post it on you can go to skeptic 1031 00:39:50,420 --> 00:39:48,480 stack exchange write it in the form of a 1032 00:39:51,440 --> 00:39:50,430 question and then click the button to 1033 00:39:53,750 --> 00:39:51,450 say I'm going to answer this question 1034 00:39:55,700 --> 00:39:53,760 myself and you write the answer yourself 1035 00:39:58,550 --> 00:39:55,710 and hopefully you'll get a good score 1036 00:40:00,920 --> 00:39:58,560 but in any case the content will be 1037 00:40:03,260 --> 00:40:00,930 there and it'll be easily accessible to 1038 00:40:04,910 --> 00:40:03,270 Google yeah I thought one of the really 1039 00:40:06,410 --> 00:40:04,920 interesting points that you made in the 1040 00:40:08,690 --> 00:40:06,420 workshop on Thursday was you were 1041 00:40:11,630 --> 00:40:08,700 comparing the number of hits that your 1042 00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:11,640 blog or website what's the harm net gets 1043 00:40:18,020 --> 00:40:14,130 versus the amount of hits that Wikipedia 1044 00:40:20,750 --> 00:40:18,030 gets and your point was to I guess to 1045 00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:20,760 target where you put information of a 1046 00:40:25,160 --> 00:40:22,530 skeptical nature to make sure it's 1047 00:40:26,930 --> 00:40:25,170 it's viewed more often and what were you 1048 00:40:29,920 --> 00:40:26,940 saying about that yeah well it's easy to 1049 00:40:33,200 --> 00:40:29,930 get into a false dichotomy a sort of 1050 00:40:34,820 --> 00:40:33,210 fallacy there and say that oh well let's 1051 00:40:36,560 --> 00:40:34,830 just go post everything on Wikipedia and 1052 00:40:38,900 --> 00:40:36,570 of course that's not the answer we need 1053 00:40:42,710 --> 00:40:38,910 skeptic websites too but you gotta look 1054 00:40:44,870 --> 00:40:42,720 at where is where's our time best spent 1055 00:40:46,880 --> 00:40:44,880 and if i can write something on on 1056 00:40:48,740 --> 00:40:46,890 what's the harm and it's going to be 1057 00:40:50,660 --> 00:40:48,750 seen by a few thousand people but i can 1058 00:40:52,370 --> 00:40:50,670 write the same thing on wikipedia and it 1059 00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:52,380 follows the wikipedia rules it's going 1060 00:40:55,850 --> 00:40:54,210 to be seen by a million people then 1061 00:40:58,370 --> 00:40:55,860 maybe i should write it on wikipedia 1062 00:41:01,280 --> 00:40:58,380 instead and of course probably i should 1063 00:41:03,710 --> 00:41:01,290 write it on both but generally skeptic 1064 00:41:07,730 --> 00:41:03,720 websites don't nearly ranked as high as 1065 00:41:11,390 --> 00:41:07,740 wikipedia they get much more traffic so 1066 00:41:13,190 --> 00:41:11,400 even if you hate wikipedia you have to 1067 00:41:14,360 --> 00:41:13,200 acknowledge the fact that the general 1068 00:41:16,730 --> 00:41:14,370 public is getting their information 1069 00:41:17,990 --> 00:41:16,740 about homeopathy and chiropractic and 1070 00:41:19,820 --> 00:41:18,000 all these things that we know about 1071 00:41:21,860 --> 00:41:19,830 they're getting that information from 1072 00:41:23,990 --> 00:41:21,870 Wikipedia in a very large degree so we 1073 00:41:26,870 --> 00:41:24,000 owe it to them to try to make those 1074 00:41:28,850 --> 00:41:26,880 articles as skeptical as possible so you 1075 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:28,860 talks a little bit about the ins and 1076 00:41:33,230 --> 00:41:30,570 outs of Wikipedia and you mentioned 1077 00:41:36,170 --> 00:41:33,240 specifically that Susan Garrick has a 1078 00:41:38,570 --> 00:41:36,180 project going to encourage skeptics to 1079 00:41:40,490 --> 00:41:38,580 get involved can you tell us a bit about 1080 00:41:43,250 --> 00:41:40,500 that yeah Susan garvik has a blog called 1081 00:41:45,170 --> 00:41:43,260 guerrilla skepticism on Wikipedia if you 1082 00:41:48,560 --> 00:41:45,180 just google that you can find it and she 1083 00:41:50,450 --> 00:41:48,570 kind of organizes skeptics around you 1084 00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:50,460 know different projects or you know some 1085 00:41:53,420 --> 00:41:52,410 figuring out where people can spend 1086 00:41:56,750 --> 00:41:53,430 their time so that they're not 1087 00:41:58,970 --> 00:41:56,760 duplicating effort or giving them help 1088 00:42:01,730 --> 00:41:58,980 when they need help and try just trying 1089 00:42:03,260 --> 00:42:01,740 to get skeptics energized about editing 1090 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:03,270 Wikipedia and she's got a project that 1091 00:42:07,820 --> 00:42:05,010 she's a sub-project that she's been 1092 00:42:09,410 --> 00:42:07,830 organizing here at tam where she wants 1093 00:42:11,810 --> 00:42:09,420 to get skeptics interested in 1094 00:42:14,030 --> 00:42:11,820 translating content into other languages 1095 00:42:15,950 --> 00:42:14,040 so that not only in the English 1096 00:42:17,900 --> 00:42:15,960 Wikipedia but in the Portuguese 1097 00:42:19,550 --> 00:42:17,910 Wikipedia and the and the French 1098 00:42:21,590 --> 00:42:19,560 Wikipedia and whatnot all the best 1099 00:42:24,530 --> 00:42:21,600 information about homeopathy or James 1100 00:42:26,720 --> 00:42:24,540 Randi or you know psychic channeling or 1101 00:42:28,340 --> 00:42:26,730 whatever is the same on all the 1102 00:42:29,990 --> 00:42:28,350 wikipedias and of course that's a huge 1103 00:42:32,190 --> 00:42:30,000 effort and she's going to start small 1104 00:42:34,470 --> 00:42:32,200 and fan out but 1105 00:42:35,730 --> 00:42:34,480 it's good because if you've ever played 1106 00:42:39,240 --> 00:42:35,740 around with a different language 1107 00:42:41,220 --> 00:42:39,250 wikipedias they can be very you know one 1108 00:42:43,380 --> 00:42:41,230 might have a really detailed article 1109 00:42:44,910 --> 00:42:43,390 about something and then you go to the 1110 00:42:47,280 --> 00:42:44,920 French version or the Spanish version 1111 00:42:49,950 --> 00:42:47,290 and the article is much smaller and less 1112 00:42:52,290 --> 00:42:49,960 well edited right and you were talking 1113 00:42:54,240 --> 00:42:52,300 about how in the early days wiki was 1114 00:42:56,400 --> 00:42:54,250 looking for content that was their 1115 00:42:58,170 --> 00:42:56,410 primary focus but now they've got a lot 1116 00:42:59,730 --> 00:42:58,180 of content now they need or was it 1117 00:43:01,740 --> 00:42:59,740 editors no they were looking for editors 1118 00:43:03,420 --> 00:43:01,750 primarily first up but now they're 1119 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:03,430 looking for content and you said that in 1120 00:43:07,349 --> 00:43:05,650 some aspects of that the camp it's 1121 00:43:10,800 --> 00:43:07,359 taking advantage of that and flooding 1122 00:43:13,770 --> 00:43:10,810 wiki with with with sort of pseudo 1123 00:43:16,829 --> 00:43:13,780 science topics yeah to a certain extent 1124 00:43:18,510 --> 00:43:16,839 uh it's they're not really flooding it 1125 00:43:21,060 --> 00:43:18,520 but but they do come in from time to 1126 00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:21,070 time in the early days of Wikipedia they 1127 00:43:24,540 --> 00:43:22,690 didn't have any articles so they wanted 1128 00:43:26,339 --> 00:43:24,550 people to write small stub article so 1129 00:43:28,170 --> 00:43:26,349 you could kind of get away with a lot 1130 00:43:30,839 --> 00:43:28,180 because they needed the articles written 1131 00:43:32,730 --> 00:43:30,849 now most of the major topics like all 1132 00:43:35,190 --> 00:43:32,740 the major skeptic topics have articles 1133 00:43:37,079 --> 00:43:35,200 so it's starting to get down into the 1134 00:43:39,690 --> 00:43:37,089 fringe topics so like homeopathy 1135 00:43:41,550 --> 00:43:39,700 obviously we know it's nonsense but it's 1136 00:43:43,319 --> 00:43:41,560 still a cultural phenomenon so it 1137 00:43:46,290 --> 00:43:43,329 deserves to have an article in Wikipedia 1138 00:43:48,240 --> 00:43:46,300 but if you find some quack you know that 1139 00:43:51,390 --> 00:43:48,250 he's the only one doing some quack 1140 00:43:53,430 --> 00:43:51,400 remedy and it's just this one guy that 1141 00:43:55,380 --> 00:43:53,440 doesn't belong on Wikipedia because 1142 00:43:57,030 --> 00:43:55,390 under Wikipedia rules it's not notable 1143 00:43:59,040 --> 00:43:57,040 enough but sometimes those quacks will 1144 00:44:00,809 --> 00:43:59,050 go in there and try to add it so there's 1145 00:44:02,910 --> 00:44:00,819 a whole section on Wikipedia called the 1146 00:44:04,859 --> 00:44:02,920 fringe theories board where people kind 1147 00:44:06,870 --> 00:44:04,869 of watch out for that sort of stuff and 1148 00:44:10,319 --> 00:44:06,880 they have a pretty good process in place 1149 00:44:12,300 --> 00:44:10,329 where they will delete stuff if it 1150 00:44:13,890 --> 00:44:12,310 doesn't belong there and sometimes you 1151 00:44:16,230 --> 00:44:13,900 can kind of run afoul of it because 1152 00:44:18,359 --> 00:44:16,240 skeptics will document our own like 1153 00:44:20,490 --> 00:44:18,369 we'll put our own people in there a good 1154 00:44:22,859 --> 00:44:20,500 example was actually just today or 1155 00:44:26,430 --> 00:44:22,869 yesterday the article for Brian Dunning 1156 00:44:28,620 --> 00:44:26,440 sceptile cast was it wasn't really 1157 00:44:30,210 --> 00:44:28,630 deleted but it was merged they decided 1158 00:44:32,190 --> 00:44:30,220 they didn't want a separate article for 1159 00:44:33,900 --> 00:44:32,200 his podcast because this podcast wasn't 1160 00:44:36,210 --> 00:44:33,910 well known enough so what they did was 1161 00:44:39,150 --> 00:44:36,220 they took the material from that article 1162 00:44:41,790 --> 00:44:39,160 and merged it into his biography which 1163 00:44:44,099 --> 00:44:41,800 is okay it's nicer to have two articles 1164 00:44:45,430 --> 00:44:44,109 but the content is still there and it's 1165 00:44:47,349 --> 00:44:45,440 still one so sometimes you lose 1166 00:44:48,490 --> 00:44:47,359 battles like that you just have to you 1167 00:44:51,010 --> 00:44:48,500 have to be aware that you're not going 1168 00:44:53,410 --> 00:44:51,020 to win every battle on Wikipedia so you 1169 00:44:55,540 --> 00:44:53,420 mentioned they but who is who is this 1170 00:44:57,250 --> 00:44:55,550 elusive a okay well that is that's 1171 00:44:58,750 --> 00:44:57,260 interesting because a lot of people have 1172 00:45:00,910 --> 00:44:58,760 this image that there's this sort of 1173 00:45:02,589 --> 00:45:00,920 cabal that runs Wikipedia but it's 1174 00:45:05,319 --> 00:45:02,599 really just a whole bunch of people and 1175 00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:05,329 it just it's very haphazard as to 1176 00:45:11,290 --> 00:45:07,010 whether or not anyone else will notice 1177 00:45:13,930 --> 00:45:11,300 what you're doing and market for 1178 00:45:15,430 --> 00:45:13,940 deletion or push back on what your the 1179 00:45:16,839 --> 00:45:15,440 changes you're making sometimes you can 1180 00:45:18,880 --> 00:45:16,849 make changes on Wikipedia and no one 1181 00:45:20,260 --> 00:45:18,890 will notice for quite some time but 1182 00:45:22,390 --> 00:45:20,270 other times they will notice within 1183 00:45:23,920 --> 00:45:22,400 minutes I fix some vandalism the other 1184 00:45:25,990 --> 00:45:23,930 day that someone pointed out to me in 1185 00:45:28,120 --> 00:45:26,000 Wikipedia and the net time that that 1186 00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:28,130 vandalism was president was a conspiracy 1187 00:45:32,230 --> 00:45:29,930 theory someone had put into the middle 1188 00:45:34,180 --> 00:45:32,240 of an article and it was only visible on 1189 00:45:36,130 --> 00:45:34,190 Wikipedia for like 30 minutes before I 1190 00:45:38,890 --> 00:45:36,140 had fixed it and it's amazing how much 1191 00:45:40,240 --> 00:45:38,900 that gets in there but there just is you 1192 00:45:41,980 --> 00:45:40,250 just have to be aware there are other 1193 00:45:44,530 --> 00:45:41,990 editors there and not all of them are 1194 00:45:46,780 --> 00:45:44,540 aware of skepticism or on board with 1195 00:45:48,880 --> 00:45:46,790 skepticism and sometimes they'll be a 1196 00:45:51,760 --> 00:45:48,890 little suspicious of you pushing an 1197 00:45:53,589 --> 00:45:51,770 agenda so you have to be careful about 1198 00:45:55,030 --> 00:45:53,599 that you can't go in and like for 1199 00:45:57,490 --> 00:45:55,040 instance decide I'm going to be the 1200 00:45:59,410 --> 00:45:57,500 homeopathy wikipedia editor and just 1201 00:46:02,859 --> 00:45:59,420 edit homeopathy articles all the time 1202 00:46:04,540 --> 00:46:02,869 because people will be suspicious of you 1203 00:46:07,329 --> 00:46:04,550 that think you're pushing an agenda so 1204 00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:07,339 for instance when I edit Wikipedia I try 1205 00:46:11,050 --> 00:46:08,930 to mix it up a bit and I've written a 1206 00:46:13,300 --> 00:46:11,060 number of really large articles about 1207 00:46:14,680 --> 00:46:13,310 historic buildings in the town that I 1208 00:46:17,200 --> 00:46:14,690 live in which has nothing to do with 1209 00:46:19,420 --> 00:46:17,210 skepticism but it helps convince the 1210 00:46:22,059 --> 00:46:19,430 rest of the people on wikipedia that I'm 1211 00:46:23,500 --> 00:46:22,069 serious about Wikipedia and I'm not just 1212 00:46:25,990 --> 00:46:23,510 a skeptic that's trying to advertise 1213 00:46:28,270 --> 00:46:26,000 skeptic stuff on Wikipedia I like 1214 00:46:30,670 --> 00:46:28,280 Wikipedia as an encyclopedia so I all 1215 00:46:32,620 --> 00:46:30,680 right a you know a 10,000 word article 1216 00:46:34,839 --> 00:46:32,630 about a hundred year old church in 1217 00:46:37,000 --> 00:46:34,849 Atlanta because it deserves to have an 1218 00:46:39,700 --> 00:46:37,010 article that make you a massive nerd or 1219 00:46:40,990 --> 00:46:39,710 something yeah probably I actually spent 1220 00:46:42,730 --> 00:46:41,000 there was one article about this 1221 00:46:44,200 --> 00:46:42,740 hundred-year-old building and I spent a 1222 00:46:46,000 --> 00:46:44,210 considerable amount of time going to the 1223 00:46:47,650 --> 00:46:46,010 library and looking through microfilm to 1224 00:46:49,990 --> 00:46:47,660 find the right because the key to 1225 00:46:52,059 --> 00:46:50,000 Wikipedia is it's like writing a 1226 00:46:53,410 --> 00:46:52,069 research paper in college you've got to 1227 00:46:55,870 --> 00:46:53,420 have the footnotes you've got to have 1228 00:46:58,340 --> 00:46:55,880 your references to back up every piece 1229 00:46:59,960 --> 00:46:58,350 of information and if you do your home 1230 00:47:01,820 --> 00:46:59,970 work and get good references and 1231 00:47:05,330 --> 00:47:01,830 footnote every fact that you put in the 1232 00:47:06,770 --> 00:47:05,340 article you can you can put a lot of 1233 00:47:08,150 --> 00:47:06,780 material on there and people will not 1234 00:47:09,980 --> 00:47:08,160 argue with you they'll look at it and 1235 00:47:13,820 --> 00:47:09,990 they say well he's got his references in 1236 00:47:17,420 --> 00:47:13,830 place and this article is is legitimate 1237 00:47:19,300 --> 00:47:17,430 and okay well they'll let it stand so i 1238 00:47:21,590 --> 00:47:19,310 want to touch on selected slacktivism 1239 00:47:23,390 --> 00:47:21,600 wrote him because you mentioned that in 1240 00:47:25,100 --> 00:47:23,400 your workshop and I so I didn't see your 1241 00:47:28,580 --> 00:47:25,110 talk today but I no doubt you probably 1242 00:47:32,300 --> 00:47:28,590 mentioned that again what what is 1243 00:47:34,280 --> 00:47:32,310 slacktivism slacktivism is a term and it 1244 00:47:36,110 --> 00:47:34,290 was originally met as a positive term 1245 00:47:39,620 --> 00:47:36,120 but it's come to be a pejorative term 1246 00:47:41,930 --> 00:47:39,630 about how folks younger folks typically 1247 00:47:43,490 --> 00:47:41,940 the millennial generation will do simple 1248 00:47:46,370 --> 00:47:43,500 things online thinking that they're 1249 00:47:48,080 --> 00:47:46,380 making a difference and not actually do 1250 00:47:51,650 --> 00:47:48,090 anything substantive so for instance 1251 00:47:53,480 --> 00:47:51,660 they'll click like on a charity but they 1252 00:47:55,130 --> 00:47:53,490 won't give any money to that charity or 1253 00:47:56,840 --> 00:47:55,140 they'll change their avatar on Twitter 1254 00:47:59,630 --> 00:47:56,850 but they won't actually call their 1255 00:48:02,390 --> 00:47:59,640 congressman about the law it used to be 1256 00:48:05,150 --> 00:48:02,400 don't do anything yet change your 1257 00:48:09,860 --> 00:48:05,160 location to Tehran as if thats actually 1258 00:48:11,630 --> 00:48:09,870 fools the spy agency in Iran yeah that 1259 00:48:13,130 --> 00:48:11,640 kind of stuff where people kind of fool 1260 00:48:14,800 --> 00:48:13,140 themselves into believing they're making 1261 00:48:17,990 --> 00:48:14,810 a difference and the things don't really 1262 00:48:19,940 --> 00:48:18,000 amount to a hill of beans whereas their 1263 00:48:21,790 --> 00:48:19,950 stuff that you know when you put a piece 1264 00:48:25,160 --> 00:48:21,800 of content like I wrote George rabs 1265 00:48:27,770 --> 00:48:25,170 biography on and i wrote care installs 1266 00:48:30,140 --> 00:48:27,780 knows biography and Harriet halls 1267 00:48:32,180 --> 00:48:30,150 biography on Wikipedia and that content 1268 00:48:36,170 --> 00:48:32,190 is not only available in Wikipedia but 1269 00:48:38,330 --> 00:48:36,180 because Wikipedia is a open license it 1270 00:48:41,060 --> 00:48:38,340 can appear in books it can be cross 1271 00:48:43,580 --> 00:48:41,070 posted to other websites so that content 1272 00:48:48,200 --> 00:48:43,590 will have a life of its own for years to 1273 00:48:50,390 --> 00:48:48,210 come and it will last whereas your twiba 1274 00:48:52,910 --> 00:48:50,400 knew nobody will remember it next week 1275 00:48:56,600 --> 00:48:52,920 if they even noticed it this week so 1276 00:48:59,360 --> 00:48:56,610 yeah damn it when i touch my trip in 1277 00:49:00,980 --> 00:48:59,370 blue I was going to save the world so 1278 00:49:02,900 --> 00:49:00,990 with that in mind what was something you 1279 00:49:05,150 --> 00:49:02,910 covered quite a lot in you worry tell us 1280 00:49:07,370 --> 00:49:05,160 about the web of trust web of trust is 1281 00:49:09,440 --> 00:49:07,380 an outfit out of I think Finland and 1282 00:49:10,789 --> 00:49:09,450 it's another browser plugin and the idea 1283 00:49:13,759 --> 00:49:10,799 is to try to warn you 1284 00:49:15,859 --> 00:49:13,769 scams and other bad stuff on the 1285 00:49:18,859 --> 00:49:15,869 internet pornography to a certain extent 1286 00:49:21,019 --> 00:49:18,869 but mostly scams and privacy violations 1287 00:49:22,579 --> 00:49:21,029 so you go to some random online store 1288 00:49:23,660 --> 00:49:22,589 that wants your credit card number how 1289 00:49:25,429 --> 00:49:23,670 do you know they're not going to steal 1290 00:49:27,410 --> 00:49:25,439 your credit card and do something with 1291 00:49:29,660 --> 00:49:27,420 it we all know the big vendors like 1292 00:49:30,620 --> 00:49:29,670 paypal and ebay and amazon we can trust 1293 00:49:33,890 --> 00:49:30,630 them because they're well-known 1294 00:49:36,349 --> 00:49:33,900 companies but if you go to Fred's sock 1295 00:49:37,849 --> 00:49:36,359 shop calm how do you know Fred's not 1296 00:49:41,209 --> 00:49:37,859 going to steal your credit card you mean 1297 00:49:43,819 --> 00:49:41,219 I love fritz so whether Trust is a way 1298 00:49:45,949 --> 00:49:43,829 to get an idea of that and it's done 1299 00:49:47,749 --> 00:49:45,959 through crowdsourcing again where people 1300 00:49:50,359 --> 00:49:47,759 who have actually been to Fred's shock 1301 00:49:52,130 --> 00:49:50,369 shop and had an experience can vote in 1302 00:49:53,689 --> 00:49:52,140 web of trust and say yeah I like Fred 1303 00:49:56,150 --> 00:49:53,699 sock shop I bought something from him 1304 00:49:57,799 --> 00:49:56,160 the thing arrived he didn't he didn't I 1305 00:50:00,349 --> 00:49:57,809 bought some socks they were great socks 1306 00:50:03,019 --> 00:50:00,359 he didn't steal my credit card I'm good 1307 00:50:04,579 --> 00:50:03,029 with him and enough people vote and it's 1308 00:50:07,459 --> 00:50:04,589 not just a straight Democratic vote 1309 00:50:10,459 --> 00:50:07,469 there's some computer magic in there to 1310 00:50:12,349 --> 00:50:10,469 try to judge whether someone is voting 1311 00:50:14,809 --> 00:50:12,359 in a trustworthy manner and things like 1312 00:50:17,509 --> 00:50:14,819 that to help keep people from gaming the 1313 00:50:19,489 --> 00:50:17,519 system but one of the ratings that web 1314 00:50:21,130 --> 00:50:19,499 of trust has is trustworthiness that's 1315 00:50:23,359 --> 00:50:21,140 the number one rating and 1316 00:50:25,009 --> 00:50:23,369 trustworthiness I think goes right to 1317 00:50:27,049 --> 00:50:25,019 what skeptics are about do you trust a 1318 00:50:29,239 --> 00:50:27,059 psychic do you trust that homeopath no I 1319 00:50:31,279 --> 00:50:29,249 don't they're not trustworthy so I think 1320 00:50:32,870 --> 00:50:31,289 it's perfectly reasonable for skeptics 1321 00:50:35,179 --> 00:50:32,880 to go and say this is not a trustworthy 1322 00:50:37,749 --> 00:50:35,189 person now the other stuff there's other 1323 00:50:40,669 --> 00:50:37,759 ratings in Weber trusts like privacy 1324 00:50:42,529 --> 00:50:40,679 it's it's not really right for a skeptic 1325 00:50:44,900 --> 00:50:42,539 to say this site has a privacy violation 1326 00:50:46,309 --> 00:50:44,910 unless you know something about that but 1327 00:50:49,219 --> 00:50:46,319 the trustworthiness I think goes 1328 00:50:51,849 --> 00:50:49,229 directly to it so let's all vote the the 1329 00:50:54,049 --> 00:50:51,859 quacks and the psychics down on 1330 00:50:55,699 --> 00:50:54,059 trustworthiness and the neat part is is 1331 00:50:57,140 --> 00:50:55,709 that if you have web of trust installed 1332 00:50:59,539 --> 00:50:57,150 and you actually try to go to one of 1333 00:51:01,549 --> 00:50:59,549 these sites this giant warning comes up 1334 00:51:04,370 --> 00:51:01,559 on your screen and says warning this 1335 00:51:06,319 --> 00:51:04,380 site is not considered trustworthy and 1336 00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:06,329 yet they can see details about that and 1337 00:51:10,249 --> 00:51:07,890 they can click a button go to the site 1338 00:51:12,169 --> 00:51:10,259 anyway but at least you get that warning 1339 00:51:14,239 --> 00:51:12,179 and 30 million people have that thing 1340 00:51:16,699 --> 00:51:14,249 installed and Facebook is there and 1341 00:51:18,829 --> 00:51:16,709 Facebook started doing it on their 1342 00:51:20,630 --> 00:51:18,839 external links so when people link to 1343 00:51:22,959 --> 00:51:20,640 sites because so many of these scams and 1344 00:51:24,529 --> 00:51:22,969 things have been pushed through facebook 1345 00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:24,539 facebook is started 1346 00:51:28,339 --> 00:51:26,729 putting it on external links so you get 1347 00:51:29,509 --> 00:51:28,349 you don't get the full screen warning 1348 00:51:33,319 --> 00:51:29,519 but you get a little bit of a warning 1349 00:51:35,209 --> 00:51:33,329 and that's 900 million people that have 1350 00:51:37,459 --> 00:51:35,219 accounts on facebook so that's a huge 1351 00:51:39,439 --> 00:51:37,469 outreach I mean that's way there's no 1352 00:51:41,959 --> 00:51:39,449 skeptic blog that comes anywhere close 1353 00:51:43,400 --> 00:51:41,969 to that but one of the things that you 1354 00:51:44,870 --> 00:51:43,410 emphasize don't think I want you to 1355 00:51:46,189 --> 00:51:44,880 emphasize this again for the listeners I 1356 00:51:48,380 --> 00:51:46,199 think it's a really important point is 1357 00:51:50,419 --> 00:51:48,390 that don't be dishonest with that system 1358 00:51:52,729 --> 00:51:50,429 yeah you mentioned there are four things 1359 00:51:54,769 --> 00:51:52,739 you can vote on trustworthiness privacy 1360 00:51:58,309 --> 00:51:54,779 child safety and what was the other one 1361 00:51:59,900 --> 00:51:58,319 the other one is I think reliability 1362 00:52:02,120 --> 00:51:59,910 basically did they deliver the goods 1363 00:52:04,189 --> 00:52:02,130 what they ship them on time did they 1364 00:52:05,989 --> 00:52:04,199 overcharge you that's kind of business 1365 00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:05,999 sort of things and I think the only two 1366 00:52:10,309 --> 00:52:08,249 that really apply to skepticism are the 1367 00:52:12,289 --> 00:52:10,319 trustworthiness clearly and then maybe I 1368 00:52:15,019 --> 00:52:12,299 often vote in the child safety for 1369 00:52:17,269 --> 00:52:15,029 anti-vaccine site thats pretty obvious 1370 00:52:21,019 --> 00:52:17,279 maybe chiropractors who adjust kid's 1371 00:52:22,999 --> 00:52:21,029 name right yeah yeah so I vote in those 1372 00:52:24,829 --> 00:52:23,009 two ratings and the other thing is the 1373 00:52:27,559 --> 00:52:24,839 same thing I said about wikipedia where 1374 00:52:29,299 --> 00:52:27,569 don't just vote negatively in web of 1375 00:52:30,649 --> 00:52:29,309 trust find some sites that you like find 1376 00:52:32,749 --> 00:52:30,659 some sites that have nothing to do with 1377 00:52:35,059 --> 00:52:32,759 skepticism and give them a green vote 1378 00:52:37,099 --> 00:52:35,069 and that will help on the system 1379 00:52:39,439 --> 00:52:37,109 understand that you're not just a angry 1380 00:52:41,299 --> 00:52:39,449 person on the internet going and voting 1381 00:52:43,279 --> 00:52:41,309 down all the sites that you hate that 1382 00:52:45,319 --> 00:52:43,289 you're a real internet user and you like 1383 00:52:47,299 --> 00:52:45,329 this site and you hate that site and it 1384 00:52:49,219 --> 00:52:47,309 will see that your votes whether your 1385 00:52:50,719 --> 00:52:49,229 votes tend to agree or disagree with 1386 00:52:53,899 --> 00:52:50,729 other users on the internet and the 1387 00:52:56,149 --> 00:52:53,909 system will tend to trust you and you 1388 00:53:00,919 --> 00:52:56,159 can make a huge effect when Stanislaw 1389 00:53:02,630 --> 00:53:00,929 Burzynski became a big deal last fall we 1390 00:53:04,969 --> 00:53:02,640 put out the links to the web of trust 1391 00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:04,979 pages for all four or five however many 1392 00:53:10,489 --> 00:53:08,130 sites he has and I tweeted it and then 1393 00:53:12,620 --> 00:53:10,499 the bad astronomer Phil Plait put it in 1394 00:53:15,870 --> 00:53:12,630 a blog post and like it was like within 1395 00:53:18,269 --> 00:53:15,880 a day all his sights were red 1396 00:53:20,039 --> 00:53:18,279 and then I actually saw it there's a 1397 00:53:22,079 --> 00:53:20,049 forum on web of trust where you can go 1398 00:53:25,049 --> 00:53:22,089 and talk about the product and complain 1399 00:53:27,240 --> 00:53:25,059 about bugs and the webmaster for 1400 00:53:29,160 --> 00:53:27,250 Pierzynski showed up and said I think 1401 00:53:31,140 --> 00:53:29,170 people are trying to engineer our 1402 00:53:33,990 --> 00:53:31,150 ratings and it's not fair we're an 1403 00:53:36,150 --> 00:53:34,000 honest business and they didn't they 1404 00:53:37,440 --> 00:53:36,160 didn't do anything but but I asked you 1405 00:53:39,059 --> 00:53:37,450 this question the other day because it 1406 00:53:41,160 --> 00:53:39,069 puzzles me because I mean this is a 1407 00:53:43,470 --> 00:53:41,170 crowdsourced tall which means that 1408 00:53:46,140 --> 00:53:43,480 anyone can use it right so baczynski 1409 00:53:48,120 --> 00:53:46,150 fans or friends or you know they could 1410 00:53:50,609 --> 00:53:48,130 really go in and use this tool and vote 1411 00:53:52,499 --> 00:53:50,619 it back green but in this case in 1412 00:53:53,999 --> 00:53:52,509 baczynski case it hasn't happened yeah 1413 00:53:55,380 --> 00:53:54,009 and when in the case of the Australian 1414 00:53:57,660 --> 00:53:55,390 vaccination network it hasn't happened 1415 00:54:00,870 --> 00:53:57,670 and I don't why do you think that is 1416 00:54:02,670 --> 00:54:00,880 yeah I'm a little uh I'm not sure I 1417 00:54:07,349 --> 00:54:02,680 think there's a number of explanations I 1418 00:54:09,660 --> 00:54:07,359 have seen some misinformation sites that 1419 00:54:11,940 --> 00:54:09,670 do have pretty strong green ratings 1420 00:54:14,009 --> 00:54:11,950 where clearly their readers have gone 1421 00:54:15,839 --> 00:54:14,019 and voted it up so I think it just 1422 00:54:17,789 --> 00:54:15,849 depends on whether or not the site has 1423 00:54:20,970 --> 00:54:17,799 become aware of it and also how 1424 00:54:22,710 --> 00:54:20,980 tech-savvy the followers of that site 1425 00:54:24,329 --> 00:54:22,720 are and I think a lot of the followers 1426 00:54:26,999 --> 00:54:24,339 of some of these alt med people are 1427 00:54:28,769 --> 00:54:27,009 maybe not that tech savvy and don't know 1428 00:54:31,190 --> 00:54:28,779 what a browser plug-in is and can't 1429 00:54:34,470 --> 00:54:31,200 figure out how to create an account and 1430 00:54:37,740 --> 00:54:34,480 they just can't get enough people to do 1431 00:54:39,809 --> 00:54:37,750 the voting and you can actually see that 1432 00:54:42,210 --> 00:54:39,819 in web of trust there's an icon next to 1433 00:54:45,269 --> 00:54:42,220 the rating that has little people little 1434 00:54:47,400 --> 00:54:45,279 cartoon people and if only it's like 125 1435 00:54:49,440 --> 00:54:47,410 people and depending on how many of them 1436 00:54:51,240 --> 00:54:49,450 are filled in that's roughly how many 1437 00:54:53,670 --> 00:54:51,250 people have actually voted so that tells 1438 00:54:55,230 --> 00:54:53,680 you how confident the value is and if 1439 00:54:56,880 --> 00:54:55,240 all five of the people are filled in 1440 00:54:58,410 --> 00:54:56,890 dark then that's probably a pretty 1441 00:55:00,509 --> 00:54:58,420 strong rating and you're going to have a 1442 00:55:02,130 --> 00:55:00,519 hard time moving it yeah but a lot of 1443 00:55:04,049 --> 00:55:02,140 sites you know a lot of these alt med 1444 00:55:05,970 --> 00:55:04,059 sites really not a lot of people go to 1445 00:55:08,700 --> 00:55:05,980 them so not a lot of people vote so it's 1446 00:55:11,579 --> 00:55:08,710 not hard for skeptics to move the rating 1447 00:55:13,289 --> 00:55:11,589 pretty quickly so Tim why did you yell 1448 00:55:16,259 --> 00:55:13,299 at people during your talk just then 1449 00:55:17,849 --> 00:55:16,269 well I was I was talking about all this 1450 00:55:20,249 --> 00:55:17,859 stuff whatever trust and what not and 1451 00:55:21,870 --> 00:55:20,259 how you know with just a few minutes 1452 00:55:23,999 --> 00:55:21,880 time you can actually make a difference 1453 00:55:26,400 --> 00:55:24,009 on the Internet create some content or 1454 00:55:28,049 --> 00:55:26,410 fix something on Wikipedia or vote on 1455 00:55:29,609 --> 00:55:28,059 web of trust and it will actually make a 1456 00:55:31,140 --> 00:55:29,619 difference in skepticism 1457 00:55:33,210 --> 00:55:31,150 but so many people are spending their 1458 00:55:36,980 --> 00:55:33,220 time online doing things like arguing 1459 00:55:39,839 --> 00:55:36,990 and 15 on page 50 of a forum thread or 1460 00:55:42,870 --> 00:55:39,849 you know pedantically pointing out 1461 00:55:44,789 --> 00:55:42,880 spelling errors and blog posts and just 1462 00:55:46,440 --> 00:55:44,799 other sorts of stuff not that we 1463 00:55:49,049 --> 00:55:46,450 shouldn't be arguing for instance with 1464 00:55:51,539 --> 00:55:49,059 the alt matters online but just I'll you 1465 00:55:53,999 --> 00:55:51,549 know figure out where the focus actually 1466 00:55:55,920 --> 00:55:54,009 makes a difference and do it where it 1467 00:55:59,279 --> 00:55:55,930 makes a difference and and then go spend 1468 00:56:00,599 --> 00:55:59,289 some time spend some time on something 1469 00:56:02,759 --> 00:56:00,609 that actually does make a difference the 1470 00:56:05,039 --> 00:56:02,769 big example that I gave was poll bombing 1471 00:56:07,470 --> 00:56:05,049 there's a number of atheist bloggers 1472 00:56:10,200 --> 00:56:07,480 that love to send their readers off to 1473 00:56:12,690 --> 00:56:10,210 go distort the results in a poll and 1474 00:56:15,150 --> 00:56:12,700 it's this colossal waste of time and 1475 00:56:17,519 --> 00:56:15,160 effort because no one cares what online 1476 00:56:19,349 --> 00:56:17,529 polls mean and you guys had that whole 1477 00:56:21,210 --> 00:56:19,359 thing where the poll somebody bombed the 1478 00:56:23,190 --> 00:56:21,220 pole and then it got into the news and 1479 00:56:24,450 --> 00:56:23,200 there was accusations and whatnot and 1480 00:56:25,859 --> 00:56:24,460 then there was a story about how the 1481 00:56:27,599 --> 00:56:25,869 pole was bombed with a pole at the 1482 00:56:30,329 --> 00:56:27,609 bottom of the story and that poked up 1483 00:56:32,759 --> 00:56:30,339 bombs yeah and it's just like just to 1484 00:56:34,710 --> 00:56:32,769 point our device it is it's ridiculous 1485 00:56:36,690 --> 00:56:34,720 and you know a year later none of these 1486 00:56:39,210 --> 00:56:36,700 polls are visible anymore everyone's 1487 00:56:40,739 --> 00:56:39,220 forgotten what the result was but a year 1488 00:56:43,470 --> 00:56:40,749 later the stuff that you put into 1489 00:56:45,120 --> 00:56:43,480 Wikipedia is still there right and that 1490 00:56:47,849 --> 00:56:45,130 rating that you put on web of trust is 1491 00:56:49,890 --> 00:56:47,859 still blocking Pierzynski site so i 1492 00:56:51,749 --> 00:56:49,900 think we should be spending the time you 1493 00:56:53,759 --> 00:56:51,759 know you could look at the web of trust 1494 00:56:56,460 --> 00:56:53,769 voting as a poll bomb and i guess maybe 1495 00:56:58,739 --> 00:56:56,470 it is but it's a poll bomb that actually 1496 00:56:59,999 --> 00:56:58,749 makes a difference yeah and and isn't 1497 00:57:01,499 --> 00:57:00,009 going to be forgotten because really and 1498 00:57:02,999 --> 00:57:01,509 truly these newspaper sites that put 1499 00:57:05,759 --> 00:57:03,009 these poles up they don't care what the 1500 00:57:07,799 --> 00:57:05,769 result is it's just this checkbox item 1501 00:57:09,900 --> 00:57:07,809 that says oh you've got to have poles 1502 00:57:11,190 --> 00:57:09,910 because it's interactivity because 1503 00:57:12,509 --> 00:57:11,200 people will vote in the poll and then 1504 00:57:14,400 --> 00:57:12,519 they'll come back the next day to find 1505 00:57:16,109 --> 00:57:14,410 out what the result is and you know and 1506 00:57:17,519 --> 00:57:16,119 they're so desperate to get you to come 1507 00:57:20,190 --> 00:57:17,529 back the next day so they can show you 1508 00:57:21,900 --> 00:57:20,200 another ad and it's a desperate industry 1509 00:57:24,420 --> 00:57:21,910 that's just trying to cling onto their 1510 00:57:26,039 --> 00:57:24,430 readers and there and so they don't care 1511 00:57:27,809 --> 00:57:26,049 they don't care what the racially those 1512 00:57:29,430 --> 00:57:27,819 poll questions are very badly wedded 1513 00:57:31,559 --> 00:57:29,440 anyway yeah they're terrible because 1514 00:57:33,210 --> 00:57:31,569 like an afterthought at the end of an 1515 00:57:34,950 --> 00:57:33,220 article yeah they've got a deadline 30 1516 00:57:36,839 --> 00:57:34,960 seconds away or something right and even 1517 00:57:39,299 --> 00:57:36,849 the bloggers that send people to bomb 1518 00:57:42,359 --> 00:57:39,309 the polls point out that the polls are 1519 00:57:43,380 --> 00:57:42,369 stupid which becomes this sort of what 1520 00:57:45,390 --> 00:57:43,390 it's like okay if the 1521 00:57:47,279 --> 00:57:45,400 all is stupid then why are we bombing it 1522 00:57:49,650 --> 00:57:47,289 shouldn't we bomb it the wrong way to 1523 00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:49,660 show how stupid it is I don't even get 1524 00:57:54,750 --> 00:57:52,690 it so you know I just I just feel like 1525 00:57:56,579 --> 00:57:54,760 you know you can do it you know go ahead 1526 00:57:58,140 --> 00:57:56,589 bomb a poll if you think it's fun but I 1527 00:58:00,690 --> 00:57:58,150 just think that there are a lot of 1528 00:58:02,339 --> 00:58:00,700 better ways that you can spend your time 1529 00:58:04,289 --> 00:58:02,349 on the internet that can really make a 1530 00:58:06,210 --> 00:58:04,299 difference so that was kind of a fame of 1531 00:58:08,400 --> 00:58:06,220 your talk today was the future of 1532 00:58:10,049 --> 00:58:08,410 skepticism and how we can have an 1533 00:58:11,759 --> 00:58:10,059 influence on what what appears on the 1534 00:58:13,620 --> 00:58:11,769 net so what else is there anything else 1535 00:58:15,240 --> 00:58:13,630 that you think skeptic should be doing 1536 00:58:16,440 --> 00:58:15,250 in that regard well one of the things is 1537 00:58:18,150 --> 00:58:16,450 just paying attention there were a 1538 00:58:19,620 --> 00:58:18,160 couple of examples I gave in the talk 1539 00:58:20,880 --> 00:58:19,630 and there was one that was from just a 1540 00:58:24,029 --> 00:58:20,890 couple of weeks ago that happened in 1541 00:58:26,160 --> 00:58:24,039 Ireland where there's a new psychic that 1542 00:58:28,259 --> 00:58:26,170 was on the one of the TV channels and he 1543 00:58:31,019 --> 00:58:28,269 was on late night it was a very cheesy 1544 00:58:32,759 --> 00:58:31,029 psychic guy but he would talk and take 1545 00:58:34,410 --> 00:58:32,769 callers on the air and on the bottom 1546 00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:34,420 third of the screen there would be 1547 00:58:38,190 --> 00:58:36,250 pictures of other psychics that you 1548 00:58:39,809 --> 00:58:38,200 could talk to so psychic Dave or 1549 00:58:42,269 --> 00:58:39,819 whatever and then there'd be psychic Joe 1550 00:58:44,339 --> 00:58:42,279 and psychic Jane down at the bottom and 1551 00:58:46,319 --> 00:58:44,349 there was a blogger in Ireland who saw 1552 00:58:48,029 --> 00:58:46,329 the pictures and thought those pictures 1553 00:58:49,620 --> 00:58:48,039 look a little odd something looks 1554 00:58:50,970 --> 00:58:49,630 familiar about them and there are some 1555 00:58:53,339 --> 00:58:50,980 tools on the internet that lets you 1556 00:58:54,509 --> 00:58:53,349 search pictures by the picture so show 1557 00:58:56,160 --> 00:58:54,519 me a picture that looks like this 1558 00:58:57,450 --> 00:58:56,170 picture so you can give it a picture of 1559 00:58:59,609 --> 00:58:57,460 a dog and I'll show you other pictures 1560 00:59:01,829 --> 00:58:59,619 of dogs and he used those tools to 1561 00:59:03,599 --> 00:59:01,839 search and lo and behold all of those 1562 00:59:06,420 --> 00:59:03,609 pictures of the other psychics down at 1563 00:59:08,759 --> 00:59:06,430 the bottom were stock photos well I 1564 00:59:11,279 --> 00:59:08,769 stock photo com some of them were stolen 1565 00:59:13,019 --> 00:59:11,289 off of people's facebook profiles none 1566 00:59:15,539 --> 00:59:13,029 of them were real people none of them 1567 00:59:17,490 --> 00:59:15,549 were psychics right so it was all fake 1568 00:59:19,740 --> 00:59:17,500 there was this one psychic guy on the 1569 00:59:22,140 --> 00:59:19,750 air and a bunch of fake ones down below 1570 00:59:24,390 --> 00:59:22,150 and he pointed that out in a blog post 1571 00:59:26,490 --> 00:59:24,400 and the newspaper got hold of it and now 1572 00:59:28,499 --> 00:59:26,500 the TV network is saying well maybe we 1573 00:59:30,299 --> 00:59:28,509 won't have this psychic on anymore and 1574 00:59:32,039 --> 00:59:30,309 that was some awesome skepticism that 1575 00:59:34,140 --> 00:59:32,049 this guy did from his living room using 1576 00:59:35,460 --> 00:59:34,150 a web browser in a search tool instead 1577 00:59:37,710 --> 00:59:35,470 of fighting with someone on a fork 1578 00:59:39,900 --> 00:59:37,720 instead of fighting with someone on a 1579 00:59:43,890 --> 00:59:39,910 forum he did some searching and did some 1580 00:59:45,589 --> 00:59:43,900 awesome skepticism yeah yeah so Tim you 1581 00:59:48,059 --> 00:59:45,599 have a quite a thorough blog about 1582 00:59:49,140 --> 00:59:48,069 describing these tools in more detail 1583 00:59:51,749 --> 00:59:49,150 waking hour lessons find more 1584 00:59:54,870 --> 00:59:51,759 information it's at skepp tools com 1585 00:59:57,269 --> 00:59:54,880 sk-ii p t 00 LS 1586 00:59:59,970 --> 00:59:57,279 coms called skeptical software tools and 1587 01:00:01,799 --> 00:59:59,980 yeah I blog about all this stuff and new 1588 01:00:04,380 --> 01:00:01,809 tools that come along and new techniques 1589 01:00:07,410 --> 01:00:04,390 and all sorts of things related to that 1590 01:00:09,930 --> 01:00:07,420 but you also do skeptical history on 1591 01:00:12,299 --> 01:00:09,940 skeptic ality yes I do a segment on 1592 01:00:14,130 --> 01:00:12,309 skeptic ality and now it's a kind of 1593 01:00:16,289 --> 01:00:14,140 changed it recently it's not just 1594 01:00:20,279 --> 01:00:16,299 history i call it skepticism past and 1595 01:00:22,230 --> 01:00:20,289 future so i do some history some patio 1596 01:00:24,180 --> 01:00:22,240 stuff that happened years ago and then i 1597 01:00:26,430 --> 01:00:24,190 do something typically that's taken out 1598 01:00:28,319 --> 01:00:26,440 of the skepta blog that's future topics 1599 01:00:30,420 --> 01:00:28,329 and i try to tie that try to tie them 1600 01:00:32,400 --> 01:00:30,430 together so you know here's the history 1601 01:00:34,620 --> 01:00:32,410 of homeopathy and then here's a 1602 01:00:36,690 --> 01:00:34,630 technique for you know finding false 1603 01:00:39,359 --> 01:00:36,700 claims on homeopathy websites or 1604 01:00:40,769 --> 01:00:39,369 something like that and and then I've 1605 01:00:43,289 --> 01:00:40,779 got a really good reaction to that 1606 01:00:44,880 --> 01:00:43,299 because people like the sort of you know 1607 01:00:47,549 --> 01:00:44,890 the dual nature of it and whatnot and 1608 01:00:49,710 --> 01:00:47,559 it's a good way to kind of cross promote 1609 01:00:51,749 --> 01:00:49,720 the stuff that I'm doing on schedules 1610 01:00:53,339 --> 01:00:51,759 but I like the history stuff because I 1611 01:00:55,859 --> 01:00:53,349 think we've got a lot of young skeptics 1612 01:00:57,480 --> 01:00:55,869 who are just getting involved and it's 1613 01:00:59,460 --> 01:00:57,490 important to know that you know this 1614 01:01:02,130 --> 01:00:59,470 stuff has been going on for you know 30 1615 01:01:04,200 --> 01:01:02,140 40 years in earnest but there are 1616 01:01:06,089 --> 01:01:04,210 incidents that are of a skeptical nature 1617 01:01:07,529 --> 01:01:06,099 that were hundreds of years old and it's 1618 01:01:08,910 --> 01:01:07,539 always interesting to see what's gone 1619 01:01:11,880 --> 01:01:08,920 before so we don't make the same 1620 01:01:13,980 --> 01:01:11,890 mistakes yeah and of course what's the 1621 01:01:17,940 --> 01:01:13,990 harm Mitch what's the harm not yet 1622 01:01:21,150 --> 01:01:17,950 that's my famous websites all stories of 1623 01:01:23,039 --> 01:01:21,160 harm so if you somebody says hey you 1624 01:01:24,390 --> 01:01:23,049 know what's the harm in homeopathy I can 1625 01:01:25,859 --> 01:01:24,400 give you a bunch of stories and there's 1626 01:01:27,390 --> 01:01:25,869 a twitter feed associated with that 1627 01:01:30,900 --> 01:01:27,400 which is what's the harm on Twitter and 1628 01:01:32,970 --> 01:01:30,910 I I post usually one a day of news 1629 01:01:34,680 --> 01:01:32,980 stories and it's kind of amazing I've 1630 01:01:36,450 --> 01:01:34,690 gotten the site's gotten so famous that 1631 01:01:38,069 --> 01:01:36,460 I literally do not have to do any 1632 01:01:40,559 --> 01:01:38,079 research anymore people just send me 1633 01:01:42,240 --> 01:01:40,569 stuff yeah and they said they'd just 1634 01:01:44,670 --> 01:01:42,250 when I think I've heard the nuttiest 1635 01:01:46,079 --> 01:01:44,680 stories in the week where I got one just 1636 01:01:48,870 --> 01:01:46,089 the other day I haven't posted it yet 1637 01:01:50,490 --> 01:01:48,880 but it was something about cannibal the 1638 01:01:55,620 --> 01:01:50,500 headline was something like cannibal 1639 01:02:01,440 --> 01:01:55,630 cult cannibal cult members arrested for 1640 01:02:04,230 --> 01:02:01,450 for 6 murders over sorcery fees so so 1641 01:02:07,170 --> 01:02:04,240 basically the local witches we're 1642 01:02:08,730 --> 01:02:07,180 shaking down the local cannibals over 1643 01:02:10,350 --> 01:02:08,740 fees like a protection 1644 01:02:12,570 --> 01:02:10,360 Beckett or maybe they wanted for spells 1645 01:02:14,640 --> 01:02:12,580 and the cannibals didn't like that the 1646 01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:14,650 fees were going up so they killed the 1647 01:02:20,100 --> 01:02:18,010 witches and ate them and then they and 1648 01:02:22,290 --> 01:02:20,110 then that agreed is that come on I don't 1649 01:02:25,380 --> 01:02:22,300 know what category i'm gonna put that in 1650 01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:25,390 three yeah what's the harm in raising 1651 01:02:31,740 --> 01:02:29,650 your fees I think but it was set on 1652 01:02:35,670 --> 01:02:31,750 Maddie it was like somebody made this up 1653 01:02:39,000 --> 01:02:35,680 this can't be a real story sorry I'm 1654 01:02:41,100 --> 01:02:39,010 laughing too loud at your story and just 1655 01:02:44,040 --> 01:02:41,110 finally your twitter handle is a curl 1656 01:02:45,480 --> 01:02:44,050 neck k Arielle and ik all right thank 1657 01:02:49,490 --> 01:02:45,490 you Tim and thanks for joining us here 1658 01:02:54,180 --> 01:02:52,020 look the Rachel Dunlop is one of 1659 01:02:56,340 --> 01:02:54,190 Australia's foremost media commentators 1660 01:02:58,980 --> 01:02:56,350 in matters concerning so-called 1661 01:03:01,530 --> 01:02:58,990 alternative medicine she has appeared on 1662 01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:01,540 national radio and national television 1663 01:03:09,060 --> 01:03:04,450 dr. AG is available for interviews and 1664 01:03:25,599 --> 01:03:09,070 you can contact her at Rachel at skeptic 1665 01:03:30,890 --> 01:03:28,339 thank you for listening to the skeptic 1666 01:03:32,989 --> 01:03:30,900 zone thank you for those people who chip 1667 01:03:34,519 --> 01:03:32,999 in every week to listen to the skeptics 1668 01:03:36,140 --> 01:03:34,529 and you don't have to of course if you 1669 01:03:39,019 --> 01:03:36,150 like listening to the skeptic zone I'm 1670 01:03:40,670 --> 01:03:39,029 delighted that's fantastic but if you 1671 01:03:42,289 --> 01:03:40,680 want to chip in less than a dollar a 1672 01:03:46,880 --> 01:03:42,299 week or there are different ways you can 1673 01:03:49,130 --> 01:03:46,890 chip in check out w w skeptics on TV the 1674 01:03:51,559 --> 01:03:49,140 skeptic zone team will be very grateful 1675 01:03:54,289 --> 01:03:51,569 don't forget it's because of people like 1676 01:03:55,999 --> 01:03:54,299 you that may not finally got to go to 1677 01:03:58,849 --> 01:03:56,009 the amazing meeting and now we can all 1678 01:04:01,249 --> 01:03:58,859 enjoy his wonderful wonderful interviews 1679 01:04:04,220 --> 01:04:01,259 lots more coming up over the following 1680 01:04:07,309 --> 01:04:04,230 weeks including Bob novella been Radford 1681 01:04:09,890 --> 01:04:07,319 Pamela gay Michael Shermer the list goes 1682 01:04:13,220 --> 01:04:09,900 on well I better get cracking on next 1683 01:04:15,739 --> 01:04:13,230 week's show & Antle then this is Richard 1684 01:04:21,739 --> 01:04:15,749 Saunders signing off from Sydney 1685 01:04:26,450 --> 01:04:21,749 Australia you've been listening to the 1686 01:04:30,289 --> 01:04:26,460 skeptic zone visit our website at www